My take is that Alec Baldwin the Actor isn’t to blame. Alec Baldwin the Producer caused all of the Armourer problems by running a low budget production.
As an actor he wasn’t supposed to check the gun, however as a producer he failed by not hiring the correct licensed armourer due to cutting corners.
And this is Alec Baldwin’s passion project, so yeah.
Never really thought about it that way. But yeah, whoever hired that lady should share some of the blame.
however as a producer he failed
That really depends on what kind of producer he was. Many times getting a producer credit just means you’re a major stakeholder or own some rights involved in the project. A producer isn’t a blame magnet, and negligence can be proven at a level lower than a producer.
He pulled a Boeing max basically. Where in they refused to pay for pilot training which led to many deaths until someone was convicted and they were forced to pay for pilot training. Cutting corners shouldn’t come at a cost of complete negligence for human life.
Actors go through training for learning martial art moves for a film. No reason they can do gun safety training for a film.
deleted by creator
I partially agree, but as a literal armorer myself I disagree with “Alec Baldwin the Actor isn’t to blame” here.
I don’t give a shit what his job title is, if he is a person who touches a real gun he should know how to do it safely or he no get real gun! Gun safety is for everyone who touches a gun, regardless of job description or other lame excuses. It’s as simple as learning Col. Cooper’s Four Rules, it isn’t like they have to take a college level course on the impact of guns throuought history, it’s basic safety information akin to “don’t touch the stove when it’s hot,” it isn’t as hard as “Mr. Big Dick” from the 82nd airborne over here with his blown out knees would have you believe.
Actors SHOULD be expected to check the gun, just as I’d expect my bartender friend, or my 82nd airborne vet friend, or literally anyone, to do if I showed them something I picked up.
I don’t get the blame deflection. An actor that has to do stunts gets stunt lessons. An actor that has to drive gets driving lessons. An actor that has to box gets boxing lessons. Am actor that has to speak a different language gets language lessons. And on and on and on… And then we have: AN ACTOR THAT HAS TO HANDLE GUNS DOES NOT NEED TO HAVE GUN SAFETY LESSONS!?!
As a human, if you are handed a gun, you check to see if it’s loaded and what it’s loader with. That is the first thing you do when handed a gun. Anything else is irresponsible.
But… What if I’m an actor who’s never seen a gun… Do i quit or is it too much of an expectation for an expert to be present and why the hell would that gun be real to begin with?
Should an actor bear absolutely no responsibility for their actions on a movie set?
Just my two cents, and I absolutely am not pretending to have any experience with this. I’d assume so long as the actor isn’t negligent or grossly irresponsible they’re in the clear. Actors are not firearms experts, and training every actor to be Keanu Reeves/John Wick is super expensive. So whomever is the firearms expert, and whomever was involved with the contracting of that expert face liability.
That’s why Baldwin the actor isn’t responsible, but Baldwin as producer might be. Since as a producer he’d bear responsibility for hiring and contracting.
Then you don’t get to touch the gun until you’ve proven to me with airsoft you can follow these four rules. . Simple as. Gun safety is to be expected from any single human who touches a real gun regardless of their job description, anything less could lead to, oh, idk, an innocent woman being killed on the set of Rust.
It’s interesting to me that in the gun world personal responsibility is paramount, everyone is responsible for safety.
In Hollywood there is no personal responsibility. No one is liable. It’s one big oopsie moment.
This seems to be the case. Personally I’m clearly on the side of the gun world, I think it’s high time we stop letting actors treat guns as toys, it is so irresponsible and clearly leads to deaths, and it is litterally just this video. Sure, accidents can still happen like Brandon Lee’s, but Cooper’s Four Rules is an absolute bare minimum standard that they should have to meet before holding a gun capable of firing live rounds (even if there are no live rounds on set, it is an 8 minute video, it really isn’t that much.
Every time you go to a new indoor range, they require you to watch a breif safety video like the one above, this is literally the one they make you watch at one of my local ranges. I’m not asking for a dissertation on the mechanical workings of the Krag, I’m asking for the most basic safety precautions.
“Wait, so what do I need to do to uncock it so that I can check it over?”
“Actually, it’s weird. You need to pull the trigger halfway, and it releases. But do it carefully.”
“…uh…”“Okay, after nearly shooting my foot off, I’ve opened the gun, and there appear to be rounds inside!! Stop the shoot!”
“Oh. Those are blanks.”
“Wait, how do I know they’re blanks?”
“Same way you know how to uncock it.”Not to mention they’re literally SUPPOSED to point the gun at people, which is also a big “gun safety” no-no.
Actually, it’s weird. You need to pull the trigger halfway, and it releases. But do it carefully."
Let people who know how guns operate have this debate, ok champ? You clearly don’t understand how guns function at a basic level. What you’ve described is how a total of 0% of guns work. It sounds like you are talking about actually breaking down the gun to clean it, but just to check if it is loaded all you need to be able to do is follow this idiot. If he can do it Baldwin can too, the Armorer should teach them how to do it if they don’t know before filming starts, and if they can’t grasp it they only get nonfiring replicas because they have not met this minimal standard that I expect from everyone that touches a gun.
The consequences of ignoring safety in the name of job titles is dead people on set, it’s worth it to just fucking learn Col. Jeff Cooper’s Four Rules instead of kill someone accidentally, whether you can abate your guilty conscience by blaming others and deferring responsibility due to job titles or not.
As a “gun guy”, I think Alec Baldwin the actor is also to blame for not learning/practicing firearm safety. Always check your weapon.
Checking a revolver to confirm they type of prop ammo is very different than a regular weapon check.
Different shots require different ammo. You may have a shot where the revolver is seen from the business end, so there needs to be a bullet of some kind in the cartridge - so maybe it’s a real bullet with no powder or primer. Or maybe the shot shows an open cylinder, so you need primers but no bullets. Or maybe you need to show the actor loading, so it’s a plastic primer or entirely fake round. Or maybe it’s being fired, so you need a blank…
The mixture of different kinds of prop ammo is how Brandon Lee was killed on set. A bullet came dislodged from a round being used for a previous scene and was still in the barrel when a blank was fired. That effectively made a live round that killed Lee.
So the barrel also needs to be checked for squibs if it’s goong to be loaded with blanks.
It’s not as simple as a regular press-check or opening the cylinder. I carry a gun every day and am a firm believer in gun safety at all times, but props are treated differently because they are different.
As a part of their job, actors will point guns at each other and pull the triggers. The normal firearm safety procedures just don’t work with them.
Checking a revolver to confirm they type of prop ammo is very different than a regular weapon check.
And YOU should learn how to check the gun in YOUR hand, regardless of if it is a Colt SAA or a Jimenez.
Some of that should be handled by the armorer, as in Brandon Lee’s case the armorer pulled the bullet and powder, but reseated the bullet onto the fresh primer. He should have popped the primer and punched it back to normal with a pin punch, then reseat and engrave on the casing “inert” with a dremel. That was 100% his fault.
This one could have been solved simply by basic gun safety that I’d expect from friends who aren’t in the industry as well, that is why I blame both Baldwin and the armorer.
Frankly, all actors who use real guns in movies should be required by SAG to take a basic safety course. They don’t have to go full Keanu, just go to the nearest range and ask any RSO if they’d like a SAG job, teaching people with the brain of a fifth grader some gun safety (had to get in a dig on them lol), should be good enough. Then the armorer should spend an hour familiarizing you with your gun on set before live rounds are even brought on set. Guns are dangerous and we shouldn’t just throw gun safety out the window because some rich guy with a bullshit job thinks it is below him to learn it, they actually need to learn it better than most with the nature of their job sometimes requiring them to break a rule (like sometimes they have to point them at people, which, while that is a no-no it can be done more safely than it currently is, and that frankly shouldn’t be controversial.)
Those business end shots, the powder is replaced with BB’s so yes it is easy to figure out if it is real or not.
The actors should know what is in the firearm before it is handed to them and verify after. Otherwise they shouldn’t be handling said firearm.
Safety is EVERYONES responsibility.
Actors’ job isn’t to be as knowledgeable as a firearm consultant, hence why they hire one. The same way they trust any scene has been safely planned out before hand and the giant boulder is assumed to be fake and not a real rock, and the harnesses that suspend them weren’t set up wrong so they fall and break their neck.
deleted by creator
I’m not a gun guy and think this is a weird take that leans into the weird fantasy the NRA pushes of every person (who touches a real gun) becoming
a gun aficionadoknowledgable about basic safety procedure regarding the tool in their hand that has the ability to take another’s life whether you meant to or not.Ftfy.
You don’t want to learn how to use guns safely? Don’t use a gun. You don’t want to learn how to use a chainsaw safely? Don’t use a chainsaw. It really isn’t as hard as you guys make it seem, either memorize this 8min video or you don’t get no guns. It is the absolute most basic prerequisite for handling a firearm.
Range safety is a class that takes less than an hour to teach, and Alec Baldwin had to go through one of these classes for the movie. You don’t need to be a gun nut to understand how to check a firearm and be safe.
Also, don’t lump me in with the NRA. They’re a racist, psychotic organization
I don’t think any knowledge can be permanently retained from a one-hour class. There are things I’ve learned for my job weeks ago that directly correlate to my field of expertise, that I still constantly need to look up from time to time.
Not to mention, I doubt a one hour course could cover the mechanisms of every uniquely-operated firearm in existence.
That first paragraph sounds like software engineering lol
I don’t think any knowledge can be permanently retained from a one-hour class.
I learned how to build AR-15s in an hour and retained it, they can learn how to do this and this in an hour and if they can’t they can’t handle real guns until they can.
Not to mention, I doubt a one hour course could cover the mechanisms of every uniquely-operated firearm in existence.
While most will be the same as their class of weaponry (i.e semi autos mostly all function the same, revolvers mostly all function the same, and single action revolvers mostly all function the same), you really just need to sit them down for a few minutes before the shoot and get them familiarized with the gun they’ll be using. For instance, an actor in a cowboy movie should be sat down before filming and learn how to safely handle the Winchester and Colt he’ll be using for the duration of filming, but we don’t need to teach him how to change barrels on an MG-42 because that won’t be “invented” for another 80yrs. Similarly, a WWII german soldier actor in saving private ryan needs to learn about his “issued” Luger or Walther p38, and his Kar98k, not the cowboy’s SAA and Model 1891. And Tom Hanks needs to learn about his Colt 1911, but not “the enemy” actor’s Luger, so long as he isn’t touching the Luger. They don’t need to be weapons experts, just have absolutely basic knowledge of the thing in their hand that is capable of killing someone whether they “meant to” or not. It is the same thing I expect from pizza drivers, butchers, baristas, etc, I don’t care what you do for a living if you touch guns you should know basic safety procedures involving them, why should he get a pass because he’s an actor, when I wouldn’t give a pass to the equally unrelated-to-firearms job of accounting?
But it’s not a weapon, it’s a prop.
Are you saying all children should learn firearm safety to handle their water pistols?
It’s both which seems unreasonable
Can that water pistol fire a live .45lc round?
Especially aiming directly at her and pulling the trigger. I don’t believe it was malicious but damn; I would never consider that without triple clearing the weapon. I still would feel comfortable.
Can a layman even check that? The gun was supposed to be loaded. Just loaded with a blank
Yes. Any layman with 15min of instruction (with THAT firearm, not even another of the same kind, THAT ONE) should be able to unload and show clear, OR they don’t get greenlit to hold a real gun, nonfiring replicas only.
We’re only giving him a pass because he’s an “actor,” I used to be a pizza driver and showed my boss my carry one night, before I passed it to him I gave him a basic run down on how to make sure it was safe, handed it to him and he reproduced it instantly. You’re telling me, that I can expect a Jordanian man who has never held a gun, who is just an owner-operator of a local pizza spot, to check if the gun is safe, but not Alec Baldwin who was Jack Ryan in The Hunt for Red October (had gun), a cop in The Departed (had gun), 30 Rock (one episode he had gun), was in Miami Blues (with a gun), The Getaway (with a gun), The Juror (had a gun), The Edge (gun), Pixie (guns), and he can’t be bothered to learn how to use them safely? Fuck that.
Yes. Blanks don’t have a bullet in the cartridge. It’s just crimped on the end
So he needs to take the bullet out, inspect and reload? Is there additional risk making an actor do that? Honestly asking
Even if he took the bullet out he would have seen it was indeed a blank. He would have had to take the bullet out and hold the barrel up to the light with the chamber open to see a previous bullet was stuck in the barrel.
Are people arguing the armorer, who left live ammunition in a gun, ISN’T responsible for the accident?? I don’t understand who or what he’s arguing against
People are arguing that both are at fault. The armorer is most clearly responsible. However, more than one person can be responsible for something.
A common rule of thumb is to never point a gun at something you don’t want to kill. This is pretty clear outside the realm of a movie studio. On a movie set, it also seems pretty clearly 100% on the side of the armorer since pointing a gun at someone is required for acting. But Baldwin pointed the gun for fun, so it’s a major gray area for a lot of people.
I certainly understand the rules of firearm safety. I guess I was giving a pass to Baldwin given that the movie industry relies pretty heavily on the armourers and also they’re just actors.
But that’s a fair point, not caring about firearm safety isn’t an option if you’re using them as a part of your job.
He was literally at work… He did it more for money than fun.
…people aren’t allowed to have fun at work?
Who said he wasnt having fun?
It was off camera and not related to work at all.
It was on set and very much work related which is why a COWORKER died.
You don’t need to point the gun at the director when you’re acting, since the director is usually not in the film. IIRC, they were not filming at the time, they were rehearsing.
How is that a grey area? He never should’ve gotten a real gun on set, there’s nothing grey.
From what I understand it’s pretty common for Hollywood movie sets to use real guns and fake ammunition.
" without absoult certainty do not point at what you are not willing to destroy…" which kind of defeats the idea if you dont for shure fully know without a doubt it wont do exactly that.
That’s a saying for a weapon. What he was handling was not supposed to be a weapon.
On a film set, prop guns are absolutely going to be pointed at people. Watch any movie and tell me if they practice gun safety while they’re actively shooting people.
and who hired those that put live rounds into" not a weapon"… if it was known that he knew this. then he is just as responsible even if he didnt pull the trigger. and even then not weapons eject something. being the wad only is still lethal if close enough. when you throw a punch your not actually supposed to full contact the person. your telling me they had to aim straight at them…
Army dude gave his take on the topic. Random person replied questioning his qualifications to talk about the subject. Army dude explained why he was qualified; he has indeed taken a weapon safety class, he’s led an entire squadron in armed combat. That’s the “don’t you know who I am”.
Regardless of the failure of physical controls, no one seems to be noting that safety training is also not Baldwin’s responsibility.
I certainly don’t look at a rich old hyperlib and think “Yeah, he knows this ‘prop gun’ is just an actual gun.” I don’t look at Baldwin and even think “He knows not to point this at something he isn’t willing to destroy.”
I wouldn’t assume he knows a single thing about guns I didn’t directly tell him and have him repeat back to me.
Haha. Rando internet schmuck thought they won the argument. But no one expects the 82nd Airborne Division
no one expects the 82nd Airborne Division.
Their chief weapon is surprise… Surprise and fear… Fear and surprise. Their two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…
And snazzy red outfits
I’ll come in again.
Is that a win here? I’d hope someone with a military background would take some responsibility for ensuring the weapon is safe…as should anyone handling a firearm. You can have 10 people check a weapon and confirm its safe before handing it to me and I’m still gonna check it.
Ok? Just because you know to do that doesn’t mean anyone else does or will.
Uh…then they shouldn’t be touching a firearm.
An architect designs a bridge. The materials include a number of steel beams that dont actually meet the support requirements for the bridge’s expected traffic. The bridge collapses.
This guy, to the survivors of the collapse: Have you ever even taken a bridge safety course?
That’s pretty much what this sounds like to me.
Here’s a more applicable example.
Two carnival clowns are having a faux sword fight. One clown hits the other clown, only to find out that his sword is razor sharp. The second clown is impaled and dies.
Do you think we would give the clown the benefit of the doubt?
Is there a clown armorer in the clown troupe who was supposed to diligently do his job and check that the swords are fake?
I’m not against making the clowns take a class about pressing their thumbs to the blade or trying to slice a piece of paper in half (checking that the bullets in the gun are crimped and, therefore, blank), but if the clown industry’s SOP is to always have a clown armorer on staff and one of the clown armorer’s main jobs is to make sure that all the swords are plastic, then who’s to blame here? Who even stored a real metal sword with the fake plastic clown swords? This is a massive failure in clown procedure.
All of what you said can be true and yet, we would probably convict the clown anyway. The clown is poor, “stupid”, and disposable. Alec Baldwin is protected by his class, wealth, and fame. There are two standards of justice here and Baldwin will be given the benefit of the doubt because of his power.
I think the take away on this is:
As is, currently, actors are not responsible for checking their prop weapons on set. No actor is ever expected to do it, because there are people responsible for it. In the event of an incident, in the current standard practices, no one can reasonably blame the actor.
But, systematically, it shouldn’t be that way.
We can’t look at one incident and say “clearly the actor was in the wrong” because culturally, it’s X Y and Z tech’s job to check the firearm. But cultures within an industry can shift. Currently, firearm safety on set isn’t everyone’s job. But it should be everyone’s job. The system should be better, because firearm safety is a demonstrably life-or-death process.
How do you change the system? By holding productions liable when stuff like this happens. You sue the absolute shit out of the producers, so the producers have a crippling fear of NOT improving the system.
You don’t hold the actor Alec Baldwin responsible. You hold the producer Alec Baldwin responsible.
you don’t change the system. letting the actor check the mag/clear the chamber adds an additional point of failure in the process and reduces safety for everyone on set.
if you want to change things you stop filming with hot weapons entirely.
I don’t get why they aren’t using altered guns that can’t accommodate real ammo? Seems crazy to use a fully functioning gun
Removed by mod
You don’t have the actor check the weapon instead of the armorer. You have them check it in addition to the armorer. You pick up a gun, you check it.
This is basic gun safety. If a gun ever leaves your direct control or observation, no matter how short, you check it.
So now all kinds of people who aren’t experts are unloading and loading the gun? That’s insane
I haven’t worked on film sets, but I’ve worked on theatrical productions which utilized blank-firing guns. The ones we specifically used had been modified to prevent the possibility of live ammunition being loaded into them, but that’s not always possible (like in the specific scene being shot for Rust, where the gun was to be pointed straight at the camera).
Generally, as others have said, the actor checking the gun is not part of the process because it adds additional risk, and may mess up the setup the armorer did. When we used blanks, the process was that the armorer would check and verify the gun was in safe and working order and was loaded correctly (i.e, for the productions we did, loaded with exactly two blanks, since the gun would be fired twice, and the revolver set to fire those two blanks in the correct timing). He would then place the gun in the specific spot on-stage where it would be retrieved from by the actor during the show (or directly hand it to the actor as they went on-stage for one of the shows). At that point, crew was not allowed near that spot on stage, and the only people allowed to touch the gun was either the armorer or the actor. Additionally, the armorer stood watch off-stage for the entire time the gun was out of his possession, and ensured nobody came near the gun except for the actor who was supposed to be using it as part of the show. After the gun was used in the show, he would immediately retrieve it, ensure it was rendered safe, and it would immediately be returned to the secure storage location we had for the gun. If we had ever run into an issue where crew would need to access the area that the gun was placed on-stage, the armorer would have removed and made safe the weapon before any of the rest of the crew could access the area.
Crew was made aware through explicit call-outs when each step occurred-- so when the gun was loaded, that was called out to crew via comms. When it was placed, that was called out. A call-out was made when the gun was retrieved by the actor, and again several seconds before it was to be used. And finally, a call-out was made when the armorer retrieved the gun and made it safe.This is the same process that every stage or screen production is supposed to have. The gun is never, ever, ever to be used with live ammunition for any reason. Live ammunition should never even be on the set, for any reason. The gun should never be passed off to anyone else other than between the armorer and the actor (or on large enough productions, the armoring team under the direct supervision of an armorer). Nobody should be stopping to inspect the guns, because that means people who are not qualified will be handling the guns outside the control of the armorer.
Currently, firearm safety on set isn’t everyone’s job. But it should be everyone’s job. The system should be better, because firearm safety is a demonstrably life-or-death process.
Yes, firearms safety is a life-or-death process, but that’s precisely why the rest of the crew and actors don’t need to have firearms be their job. All they need to know is that they do not touch any of the weapons, for any reason. If it’s out of place, they should ensure nobody comes near it, and call the armorer to retrieve it. The chain of custody for the weapons must be incredibly short, and you don’t want anyone who is not specifically authorized to be touching or interacting with the weapons in any way, because that’s how mistakes start to happen.
The weapons should only be outside the direct control of the armorer for the minimum time possible, and the armorer should be observing the entire time. As soon as the scene finishes, and between shots, the armorer should take control of the weapon again and do all the steps required to ensure it is safe.
You don’t hold the actor Alec Baldwin responsible. You hold the producer Alec Baldwin responsible.
Agreed, along with the rest of the producers. Concerns had been expressed about the armorer previously, and the production team should have responded to those and found another armorer who could safely manage the weapons (or, since some of the articles I’ve read suggest the armorer didn’t feel she could push back on other crewmembers when they wanted to do things incorrectly for the sake of timing, they should have made it clear that when it comes to how weapons are used on set, the armorer is the voice of god and has the final say at all times).
Additionally, the production team should have found other ways to film the scene where the gun was looking down the barrel of the gun, by either using mirrors to ensure the camera and crew were not in the line of fire, or by filming it remotely. Since the cinematographer was shot during a rehearsal, a rubber replica should have been used to set the focus and framing for the shot, and the live weapon should have been swapped in at the latest possible moment before filming commenced.
Why the fuck do they use real weapons on a set and not prop weapons? That’s the part I don’t understand at all…
Prop can also mean it’s a real gun.
You usually want them to be shot, at least with blanks. Nowadays you could probably fake that well with CGI, but using blanks is probably easier (and thus cheaper).
On automatica, they have to put partial obstructions inside the barrels to provide enough back-preasure to cycle the weapons without a bullet. That also means they cannot fire a live round.
Revolvers don’t need the same modification to operate with blanks, but after The Crow and this, they really should have it done anyway.
Well, that or have the actors learn this information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjk3j2bsxVw
BEFORE filming starts. Make them take a class on it for all I care and don’t let them touch real guns if they fail. Simple as. If an actor (or literally anyone) can’t even learn Col. Jeff Cooper’s Four Rules they don’t deserve to touch something they could kill someone with. And this clown should know how fucking easy that should be, not making stupid excuses about job titles precluding you from responsibility of safety precautions.
Iirc Hexum’s gun was loaded with blanks. He held it to his temple not realizing the explosive pressure from the blank was enough to send a piece of his skull through his brain.
More info from the wiki
On October 12, 1984, the cast and crew of Cover Up were filming the seventh episode of the series, “Golden Opportunity”, on Stage 18 of the 20th Century Fox lot. One of the scenes filmed that day called for Hexum’s character to load cartridges into a .44 Magnum handgun, so he was provided with a functional gun and blanks. When the scene did not play as the director wanted it to in the master shot, there was a delay in filming. Hexum became restless and impatient during the delay and began playing around to lighten the mood. He had unloaded all but one (blank) round, spun it, and—simulating Russian roulette—he put the revolver to his right temple and pulled the trigger, unaware of the danger.[8]
The explosive effect of the muzzle blast caused enough blunt force trauma to fracture a quarter-sized piece of his skull and propel this into his brain, causing massive hemorrhaging.[3][9]A 44 magnum? Did he not know how insanely loud those are even with blanks?
I might not know jumping in a jet engine will kill me, but the noise is enough to scare me off trying.
No link?
If you manufacture a prop gun in such a way that it is indistinguishable from the real thing in how it looks, sounds, and functions, you’ve just made a real gun. If you’re able to do all that and make it a completely safe prop without the capability of killing someone when loaded with real ammunition, you could make bank.
It might be cheap?
’Murica, where real guns are cheaper than fake guns.
Being paid for your work, where time spent editing is more expensive than doing it practically.
Until you accidentally kill someone.
Because they are morons
How would a fake gun make the sounds? Guess you could add in editing afterwards but the cleanest, easiest and most realistic would always be to use a real gun with blanks I would have thought. But I’m not a movie producer, so idk
Could also be that even if you’re able to get similar quality gun shots off a fake gun, it would cost a lot more in production etc
Ah, didn’t realize that’s what they did. I thought they just fired fake guns (eg something like an airsoft gun with gas blowback or something fancy )and edited the sounds in later.
From what understand, guns are silly loud. Much louder than they sound in movies.
But I’ve never fired or even held one, so what do I know :)
You’re right, big loud. If that is what actors are doing they should all be wearing earpro.
I don’t actually know how they do it in movies but from this one example I’m assuming it was industry standard but I could be wrong.
Other movies might do what you said e.g. airsoft gun or fake gun, with edited sounds later
I do find it hard to believe the industry standard is to use real guns with blanks but it may be that way. It’s a lot simpler, but obviously more dangerous
And yes guns are very loud, after a gun goes off beside you, you will have a sort of numbing in your ear for a few seconds and you can’t hear anything out of it lol
Have you ever heard a large firecracker pop? It’s very similar.
I get what he’s saying, but in something as high stakes as this safety needs to be the responsibility of everyone involved.
There should be as many redundant safety checks as possible.
I agree, especially if real guns are being used. But what I don’t get is why in this case it would be Baldwin’s fault. If this is industry-wide practice, why was he charged?
I think the industry needs to change so that for action scenes with real weapons, everyone who touches the weapon gets basic safety and firearms training. Knowing how to hold and operate the weapon, the safety rules, how to check to make sure the weapon is clear, etc.
Baldwin’s culpability as an actor lies in how he accepted the gun from the assistant director instead of the armorer and accepted the gun without being present to observe a safety check, something which he should know not to do since he supposedly had the mandatory safety training. The assistant director is not the armorer and is unqualified to declare a gun ”safe/cold". When guns are handed out prior to filming a scene at least 3 parties are supposed to be present to observe a safety check conducted by the armorer. These are the actor, armorer, and the director/an assistant director. The armorer is the qualified expert. The actor should want to know that they’re not about to shoot someone with a real gun and real bullets. And the director/assistant director acts as a representative of the downrange cast and crew. This is supposed to be done every time a gun changes hands on set.
I thought it was because he was a producer.
Because he paid the bills? IDK what a producer does other than that, but it sure as hell isn’t being in charge of the firearms.
I’m not sure what his involvement as a producer was, but I know a producer doesn’t “pay the bills”. It’s a vague enough term that it could mean he was showrunning, writing, financing. Prett much anything. It could be that he wanted the title for awards or it could be that he had many responsibilities including ensuring that the professionals involved were qualified and experienced enough for their roles - from what I remember, the armourer and some camera crew were probably not.
Sorry, I didn’t follow this case so I don’t know all the details.
It was because the gun safety practices on this particular movie set were sloppy as hell. The prosecutors argued that Baldwin ignored basic precautions on numerous occasions and that, as producer on set, he was legally liable for the shooting.
I thought so at first too, but the authorities didn’t go after the other five producers. They basically went after him because he fired the gun, not because of the production angle.
Halyna Hutchinson’s widower sued the producers. The settlement was reached and he’s both being compensated for her death and he’s now an executive producer of Rust. They moved filming to Montana and a lot of the original cast and crew agreed to complete the movie, but I don’t know how much more they were able to film before the actors strike.
“Industry-wide practice” that goes against every firearms safety standard anywhere else. From what I remember it wasn’t even during a scene, he was just playing with it.
I personally think, with the budgets of Hollywood Movies, there’s no reason they couldn’t have a gunsmith make/modify one to shoot only blanks.
From what I remember it wasn’t even during a scene, he was just playing with it.
No, they were going over the scene right before filming. The shot in question was filming down the barrel of the gun, which is why it was pointed in the direction it was.
Wow, almost like being on a movie set isn’t like being in a fucking shooting range.
No, he was not “playing with it.” He was blocking out a scene and rehearsing. He removed the gun he was given from the holster and it fired.
He should never have been handed a live firing gun. The armorer’s responsibility is to track all firearms at all times.
I personally think, with the budgets of Hollywood Movies, there’s no reason they couldn’t have a gunsmith make/modify one to shoot only blanks.
The firearm Baldwin was handed was unmodified. There was also one that had been modified to not fire anything, and another that was a resin cast replica. In other words, the entire industry is literally decades ahead of you in terms of safety and knowledge.
You do not need to ensure a firearm shoots only blanks if you just… and I can’t stress this enough… DON’T INTENTIONALLY BRING REAL AMMUNITION ONTO A FILM SET.
Which the armorer did.
Didn’t those dumbfucks on set take the prop guns out to do target practice? I don’t even own a gun, but I know enough to know that pointing a gun that has any chance of being loaded at someone is a terrible idea and that the prop master’s responsibility is to make sure that never happens. The prop master’s negligence led to that person’s death and Baldwin should have done his homework on who he was hiring. He’s probably not criminally responsible, but he should settle and avoid a civil trial.
Yup, everyone on set was shooting live non-blank rounds between takes
The first five gun safety rules
According to the Associated Press, since 1990:
43 people died on sets in the U.S. and more than 150 had been left with life-altering injuries.
But only two of those deaths in that time were from firearms.
I’ve done some digging, and I can only find 3 people who’ve died from firearms accidents in Hollywood’s history: Jon-Erik Hexum, Brandon Lee, and Halyna Hutchins. Does anybody know of another production worker killed by firearms?
Can any industry or profession that regularly deals with firearms compare with this kind of safety record? People in law enforcement, the military, and regular gun owners who lecture Hollywood on firearms safety probably need to STFU.
Wow the 82nd, this is like getting D, there are 81 airborns before yours.
I don’t know how the US army structured, it’s a joke right? Like there no corelation between how good the Brigade(?) and it’s number right? Lmao
The numbers are random and non-sequential, i.e. the existence of SEAL Team 6 doesn’t imply the existence of 5 other SEAL teams. Equipment serial numbers are the same.
If you did assign numbers sequentially, enemy forces can get a guess as to your numbers based on the serial/unit numbers of captured equipment and soldiers
Alec Baldwin was a producer on the movie and thus was involved in the decision making process to have nonunion crew on set. IATSE armorers have a near-perfect track record with firearms on set. As somebody with the clout to make it happen, Baldwin should have insisted on the shoot being a union set.
deleted by creator
The issue is, as I understand it, that Baldwin was handed the revolver from a producer or someone of similar standing and he should have handed it to the armorer for checking, regardless of what he was told.
Doesn’t matter. “Prop” guns don’t exist and every gun is unfit unless physically checked by yourself personally.
Actually, prop guns do exist and I’m not talking about the ones that shoot blanks.
Or have you never seen a cosplayer with a gun?
There are realistic looking prop guns that are built without a firing mechanism. Without, meaning it never existed in the design.
deleted by creator
OK Rambo.
Why don’t they remove the firing mechanism from prop guns? The hammer that strikes the bullet?
Prop guns often fire blanks for the sound and flash, so they still need a firing pin.
It doesn’t have to be like that. We could design a different firing mechanism.
We don’t need to. Only 3 people have died by guns on film sets in over 30 years, and every time it’s cause some idiot used real ammo in it at some point. Just never use real ammo in your prop guns, and they are always fine.
That’s not what happened. The guns were used with real ammo at a range to go shooting, then used as prop guns later without properly checking that there were no live rounds or lodged bullets in the guns.
And I’m not minimizing them, I’m telling you the actual solution isn’t modifying the firing pin, or changing the rules, since the rules work. These deaths were due to idiots breaking the rules, but the rules have worked to prevent thousands of deaths, and if followed no one will ever dies.
deleted by creator
Whatever happened was horrible but also, and my brain can’t stop thinking about this, will the movie ever come out? I don’t think it did
They resumed filming after Bladwin was found not guilty and subsequently wrapped, but there’s no release date or anything yet
Oh yeah the execs will sit on it until they feel safe that the release will not reflect badly on them.
I knew an MOS2111 sgt… they had a ND that resulted in the loss of a foot.
Military credentials dont mean shit, son.
Appeals to authority are only as good as the Authority figure you’re invoking. If you appeal to an incompetent person, then yeah it doesn’t mean shit
I’m not super up to date with the situation—Why is it that it happened in 2021 (from what I can find) and there’s a bunch of people talking about it right now?
The trial started this week so it’s somewhat topical. But there are no time limits for posts here. If you’d like that rule to change, please comment in the stickied post with your reasoning and suggestion for what the limit should be. Thanks.
He didn’t answer the question…
I think he’s just trying to deflect, what kind of weapons training do you get in the air force?
Put your mouse on safe. Make sure your chair is in a comfortable position.
Why would they need guns, it’s not like they’re going to shoot out of their planes windows. The whole thing doesn’t make sense.
You’re kidding, right?
I just don’t think they’re very knowledgeable about modern warfare. They need to do some research like I have, the ac-130 level is my favorite to play with friends.
You should work on movie sets.
