- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
I don’t understand how you think not stopping a genocide is the same as aiding or committing a genocide.
If you really think those two things are the same dude, you got to look hard in the mirror.
Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I’m going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won’t do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: “But that’s not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I’m voting 3rd party 😤”
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can’t believe you’re asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don’t even care about ponies
It’s called nuance and seeing the big picture, sweetie.
Mmmm, I absolutely love that centrist condescension, “sweetie”.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Acting like Candidate 1 won’t do the same and worse
Acting like candidate 2 is at all a good option either.
You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. “If you elect our guy, he won’t be able to do anything, but at least it’s better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he’ll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It’s safe!”
Um what?
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they’re very young and naive.
Don’t fall for it. You’ll see more of this the closer the election gets.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence… oof… i know… brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
Oh, I’m not fooled (for the most part, anyway). I’m just giving the benefit of doubt and calling them out using their own arguments and trying to not make any assumptions or accusations.
The problem is they don’t often argue in good faith. Usually deflection and gish-gallop are their MO. So be concise and be mindful of the bystander audience.
Oh, for sure. I never argue to change their minds, just to shut down whatever narrative they’re trying to spin for the bystander audience. I’ll usually play along with the gish-galloping as long as time allows but usually stop when they transition into sealioning.
bUt HeR eMAiLz!!!
wait . . . is that? . . no, yeah that’s right.
GOP Jesus approves.
Oh wow, Biden didn’t actively help the genociders one time!!! Wow! That’s certainly means that he has an actively been helping them this entire time. Dude grow up.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss. It’s up to them to field a candidate that people want to vote for. It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want. I will be voting Biden because it’s too important. If he loses, I will blame him for running, not the voters. The polling was clear, undeclared Democrat polled much higher than Biden, but for some reason he has main character complex and thought he was the only one that could beat Trump when in reality he might be the only person that can lose to Trump.
Sure I’m going to go to the third party. I recommend you all do the same unless you’re in a swing state. Dr. West and Claudia de La Cruz are actual good candidates.
Curious are you in agreement with West that NATO and the west are to blame for Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine? He opposes funding for Ukraine and wants to end the conflict giving Putin parts of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Curious if you are in agreement with Biden’s support for genocide?
Biden supports Ukraine defending itself from the genocide Russia is committing in Ukraine.
Crazy how you couldn’t answer that with a no. Maybe think about that a little my dude ✌️😎
But Biden doesn’t support genocide so there is nothing for me to say no to. West has never mentioned the genocide of Ukrainians. That is ok with you?
Biden supports Israel’s genocide of Palestinians. Which you’re ok with apparently.
So we both support genocidal maniacs. Cool
No
he called the invasion illegal.
Illegal but acceptable it seems. Giving in to Putin will never stop him.
he never said it’s acceptable
He did. He wants Ukraine to accept that Russia has stolen their land and people. If it wasn’t acceptable then he would want them to fight back.
you’re mischaracterizing and making leaps of logic.
West is willing to accept Russia’s demand for parts of Ukraine. That would be a requirement to stop the war. Unless you think West thinks Putin will give back what he has stolen?
Spoiler, they alllll do.
Go tell Biden to stop supporting Genocide instead of trying to apologize for it.
Like I said months ago, he stops the Genocide or he will lose.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
this should be the biggest takeaway from this election cycle and it saddens me to see that american liberals drink as much coolaid as maga and that they’re become more prevalent in the fediverse.
Anarchists hate tankies. Tankies hate liberals. Liberals hate anarchists. Meanwhile, Trump, fascism, and Project 2025 is on the horizon. Reach across the divide. When the fascists come for you, are you really gonna ask if the people willing to fight with you are Leninists, Trotskyist, or social Democrats?
We can criticize ideals, but at the end of the day, we’re all fighting fascism.
It’s not Kool aid, it’s an understanding of reality. There’s no chance of running a third party or another democrat in this month of this year in this election .
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump, who will never be convinced of anything, will happily build an actual Christian nation-state and is likely compromised by foreign actors .
After the election, hoping Biden wins, is the time for leftists to wake up and build a candidate. If trump wins they may never get the chance due to project 2025.
It’s like this:
The floor is covered in broken glass. You must cross it to get out.
You are wearing very uncomfortable high heel shoes.
You can either remove the uncomfortable shoes and walk in the broken glass, taking massive damage. Your feet will never be the same.
Or you can wear the uncomfortable shoes, safely cross the room, and then stop once you are out, and either remove the shoes and find new ones.
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump
i am not fine with biden or trump.
That’s fine, but you are in a game. You have 2 choices. Your actions influence ONLY the possible success of one of those two names.
i’m going to be voting for cornel west or jill stein (or de la cruz if someone can convince me). but i won’t be voting for fascists.
And depending on your county/state, your vote will do nothing, or help trump. Enjoy.
my vote will add one to the vote total of the candidate for whom i vote. unless that person is trump (it won’t be), then i am voting against trump.
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Edit: I change my mind. After seeing Bidens debate performance it is pretty obvious that he is going to lose. Unless if the Democrats replace Biden with a candidate who can actually speak. I will be voting for Jill Stein instead.
Edit 2: Turns out Biden dropped out. I will now vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but after this election I will be voting 3rd party from now on.
saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more
threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears
The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.
As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.
Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.
Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it’s helping some people, and that’s important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn’t previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.
If we’ve made someone’s life better or easier, we’ve succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren’t in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.
Thats a part of practical leftism indeed! Did the legalize end even the legal persecution of LGBTQ folks? Not entirely, look at the south. But it did( force a cultural shift. Suddenly it wasnt so cool to use gay as an insult and shit on queer ppl who looked/dressed/sounded a certain way.
The LGBTQ ppl in my life have been afforded the ability to step out of the closet with less fear than before. If im to march with them, this imperfect solution is working towards my ends as well.
Solidarity, comrade, regardless where ur politics are. I want liberation even for the righty whities that profess to hate us.
I really hope the majority of leftists are like you. I’m slightly more right, as a progressive, but I hope the more combative leftists I see online are just the loud minority.
You seem like someone that I could have a fun debate with over a beer about where we differ, and you have my respect.
Thanks dude.
The combative ones seem like trolls to me. I left a comment elsewhere outlining it, but leftist spaces on reddit were once open minded and places for critical thinking, not circle jerking. Our wing is being coopted ths way the right was in 2016. Only reason i speak to the trolls is so for everyone else to see.
Lol are you really going for this “notlikeotherleftists” persona? Buddy there’s already a name for that. It’s “liberal”. You’re talking like one, acting like one and voting like one.
Never said any of that. In fact, given the fact that theres groups like the Spanish anarchists who participate in govt, what im going for is exactlyliketheotherleftists. Except u know, the actual ones who understand that building bridges is how u make anything happen.
It’s a round about way of saying they want a civil war.
A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…
I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.
Agreed. I would add to that – there’s actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It’s not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it’s an absolute cakewalk.
Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They’re solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it’s so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what’s the difference.
It’s like “The plane is having engine trouble and I don’t know if we’re going to make it. I’m real scared and upset about the situation we’re in. I know! Let’s shoot the pilot in the head.”
Well said.
I believe a fraction of them are actual authoritarian sympathizers, and are just hoping “their brand” will align with a future hypothetical autocrat.
They don’t want actual justice, they just want to reroll the dice and hopefully come out on top.
To the other fraction, I think those folks are exactly the folks who completed those movements you mentioned. They worked hard to push the existing system towards their goal, often starting from a very weak position.
That pushing largely isn’t done, and it is less glamorous and obvious compared to flipping the table, killing the current leaders (and a bunch of other demonized but innocent groups oopsie daisy) and trying again. That’s how you get a Khmer rouge and then a pol pot.
We need another MLK and his contemporaries.
I agree, we really need some leftists who have the backbone of MLK.
Now let me say a word for those of you who are on strike. You’ve been out now for a number of days. But don’t despair. Nothing worthwhile is gained without sacrifice. The thing for you to do is stay together. Say to everybody in this community that you’re going to stick it out to the end until every demand is met. And that you’re going to say, “We ain’t going to let nobody turn us around.” Let it be known everywhere that along with wages and all of the other securities that you are struggling for, you’re also struggling for the right to organize and be recognized…
We can all get more together than we can apart. This is the way to gain power. Power is the ability to achieve purpose. Power is the ability to effect change. We need power…
Now the other thing is that nothing is gained without pressure. Don’t let anybody tell you to go back on your job and paternalistically say, now, “You’re my man, and I’m going to do the right thing for you if you’ll just come back on the job.” Don’t go back on the job until the demands are met. Never forget that freedom is not something that must be demanded by the oppressor. It is something that must be demanded by the oppressed. Freedom is not some lavish dish that the power structure and the white forces imparted with making positions will voluntarily hand down on a silver platter while the Negro merely furnishes the appetite.
If we are going to get equality, if we are going to get adequate wages, we are going to have to struggle for it. Now, you know what, you may have to escalate the struggle a bit. If they keep refusing, and they will not recognize the union, and will not decree further check-off for the collection of dues, I’m telling you what you ought to do, and you’re together here enough to do it. In a few days you ought to get together and just have a general work stoppage in the city of Memphis.
Now that shit will fire you up. Good stuff.
Notice he was very forceful and determined, but never said stupid stuff like “hurr let’s get the guillotine!”
Nor did he say “hurr it’s your duty to vote for the lesser-evil!”
I love how centrists will confidently cite the civil rights movement without a hint of irony, and then completely ignore what those civil rights leaders had to say about the objections of moderates over direct action. They’ll silently downvote a direct quote from MLK without engaging with how it somehow doesn’t apply to them.
Direct action on Gaza sounds great.
Are you under the impression that MLK was saying, don’t vote for Boutwell in his election against Bull Connor, because Boutwell isn’t good enough to deserve our support?
He’s not making a comment on voting or not voting at all, in fact this is written after Boutwell was elected.
He’s addressing criticisms that directing protests at Boutwell before he has a chance to govern is misplaced and ill-timed, and he’s pointing out that while Boutwell may be gentler, he’s still a segregationist and is still in need of pressure. It doesn’t matter if one is gentler than the other, the goal remains the same, and no freedom is ever given by the oppressor without being demanded.
Biden is gentler, but he’s still a Zionist, and so he is still in need of pressure.
In case you’re unfamiliar with the rest of his letter, he’s also saying that the purpose of all direct action is to place pressure on moderates so that they may come to the negotiation table, even -and especially- direct action that causes material (in MLK’s case, non-violent) harm to those same moderates.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation
And I haven’t even gotten to the Malcom X quotes.
I know what he’s saying, yes. Like I say, pressure on Biden over Gaza sounds great, and it actually seems like it’s having an impact, although it’s still pretty fuckin mild compared with what the US should be doing.
Later in his life Malcolm X realized much of his youthful positions on things was stupid and he retracted them.
Lol what a fruitful day of reading: since you mentioned Gandhi…
Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.
A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Fear has its use but cowardice has none.
Man lives freely only by his readiness to die, if need be, at the hands of his brother, never by killing him.
It is any day better to stand erect with a broken and bandaged head then to crawl on one’s belly, in order to be able to save one’s head.
Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up.
If co-operation is a duty, I hold that non-co-operation also under certain conditions is equally a duty.
Honestly, of all the civil rights figures you could have cited, Gandhi is the one who would tell you that non-cooperation with evil is more important than self-preservation. How on earth could you look at Gandhi and say; ‘he would want me to vote for the lesser evil’?
I thought we had worked this out earlier, talking about Bull Connor. I was all on board when I thought you were saying, let’s give Biden a hard time over Gaza. Now I’m a lot less sure what you’re saying.
Do you think working as a collaborator of the Raj, is more or less the same as voting for the clearly less-genocide-supporting of two arguably-genocide-supporting candidates?
Would this apply also to refusing to vote for Boutwell over Connor, or refusing to vote for the SDP (with all its colonial adventures in Africa and etc) over the NSDAP in prewar Germany?
No, he’s saying sticking with your principles is more important than even preventing your own harm. He pushed for change by being willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn’t just blindly non-violemt, he risked self injury to advance change
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day, but confidently standing your ground now is what moves the needle, not beating the drums of cooperation for Biden.
Yes, I know what Gandhi’s saying. I’m asking how you’d apply it to the present day, and you’re deflecting instead of answering.
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day
Oh sorry I must have replied to a message under the wrong meme or something; the one on my screen is different I guess.
(Edit: Also there’s this)
I keep asking you to clarify what you’re saying, and you treat it like it’s some sort of trick, and react with tactics instead of clarity. That’s a hallmark of propaganda. Just say what you mean, if you feel confident enough to stand your ground in it.
I think u accidentally replied to the wrong comment, but im starting to really love seeing ur name come up. Very well informed on a period in time most of us only know so much.
Wasn’t the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.
All those armchair warriors that have a couple guns and say they’re ready for the revolution, but aren’t even participating in any activism besides edgelording on forums.
Sure you are, champ. Sure you are. Why don’t you instacart yourself some hot pockets and a gallon of ice cream.
If you aren’t part of at least three mutual aid groups providing mesh support in your tri-county area, I don’t wanna hear a goddamn thing about the revolution from you.
It blows my mind that we’re still discussing this after the German left took this approach with Hitler.
There is no “after fascists”. Fascists are the enemy that we unite against. Hitler wouldn’t have come into power if the leftists and moderates cooperated and had a healthy relationship. Even if some factions of the left/moderates want to play off fascists for power, there’s still plenty of people in the relevant group who dislike the fascists. Unite with them to take down the fascists and elements of their party who empower them.
We’ll get nowhere if we assume the entire group of leftists/moderates are fascist supporters. We need to ally.
??
There is no “after fascists”? What the hell are you talking about? Are you aware Germany is currently one of the strongest economies, one of the top political players, one of the most influential countries we have today? They also have laws specifically prohibiting denying the holocaust and disseminating Nazi propaganda, because they learned and our . They learned their lesson with fascism and now are actively fighting against it, while being a great country to live in; This is after fascists. Sure, it wasn’t the next fucking day. But it happened, which is more than can be said about the US.
So yeah, maybe sometimes the solution is to burn the country down and hope it rises from the ashes. If it does, it’ll be stronger. If it doesn’t, maybe it shouldn’t.
There is no “after fascists”? What the hell are you talking about? Are you aware Germany is currently one of the strongest economies, one of the top political players, one of the most influential countries…
Ok, we’ve solved it:
Step 1: Vote in fascism.
Step 2: Wait for the US, UK and Russia to destroy your country and millions of your young people.
Step 3: …
Step 4: Leftist utopia.
As long as the US provides essentially all of your military support for the next hundred years, free of charge
I refuse to have Biden elected again just so he can sit in his office and say, “can you believe it? We supported a genocide and killed 30 thousand and people still voted for me!” I know the other option is trump the terrible but at least your strategically setting a precedence that this type of behavior is unacceptable and will send a signal to future presidents.
Its like giving a dog a cookie after they piss on the floor, dogs gonna think its ok to piss the floor. Their lesser evil strategy has grown so large and out of control they dont even recognize evil when it sends more bombs to Israel
This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he’s a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we’re stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That’s how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can’t because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because “they won’t win anyway” even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
It’s not “considered” throwing your vote away. Under a FPTP voting system, it is throwing your vote away. Nobody who tells you that says it gleefully like we just love that we and you can’t vote third party effectively. It’s just the mathematical reality of our voting system and it has to be changed before voting third party becomes an option that is anything but symbolic and self-defeating.
The DNC is not the ephemereal vague boogeyman the left tries to make it out to be. It’s an organization focused on winning elections and accomplishing policies for the Democratic constituency. You are making the mistake of hating the player instead of the game.
If third party votes are important to you, join a local political group focused on expanding another voting choice method like Ranked Choice or STAR voting. You’re already on the easier half of the ideological spectrum to wage this fight from, since most sponsors of alternatives are from democratic groups.
Tell me which democrats before Trump’s term was “ignoring their constituents for business interests” - show your work, please. Because you sound like a bipartisan moron.
If you can’t understand how bad trump was and will be, you’re fucking retarded. I agree that trump is a symptom but the disease is dumbasses that value social issues like abolishing trans rights and wanting to restore the ability to say the “hard R” without getting fired.
Biden (or his cabinet, whatever) has done so much good for this country that it fills me with a white hot rage that there’s still so much opposition to what is essentially the best presidency we’ve had in decades. You know what? I think you’re part of the problem. I think you don’t know the first thing when it comes to policies, legislation, bills, laws, economic incentives, budgets, etc. I think you think you’re just “looking at both sides, man”.
Sorry if that’s a bit harsh but you guys speak so confidently about issues you know nothing about. I’ll try to make it easier: if you’re a Democrat, vote Biden. If you’re not a Republican, vote Biden. If you don’t like Biden but hate Trump, then vote Biden. If you’re unsure (then you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids, honestly) vote Biden and thank me later. If you’re a Trump supporter I’ll pray for you but vote Trump. If you’re a Republican and don’t like Trump, I’m so sorry.
I get the feeling that a lot of these people think that somehow withholding their vote to punish Biden is some kind of ultimate punishment and it allows them to feel superior without having to do anything else to actually contribute.
Its tactical. The right is in distress bc theyre so damn unpopular and their base is shrinking while the left is growing. So, for our enemies, its time to turn us against each other and convince us “voting bad.” Bc low turn out is the only way they win. And they say, “but itll keep happening,” except, it wont. Bc theyre in distress. Bc theres less and less boomers to vote for shit. So now, on the eve of tides turning, “wah! Itll always be this way! Give up, dont vote! The right will eventually win!”
Yeah. Tell people that voting for Biden is a vote for the removal of MAGA from politics.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why someone who says they won’t vote for Biden shouldn’t be actively voting for Trump.
They’re the same thing… Like, on every level.
Nah the shit im seeing is more thay theyre the same thing so either dont vote bc fuck the system (and get full blown dictatorship, which the amerikiddies have never actually felt or heard first hand about to distinguish from authoritarian-lite biden) or dont vote/vote third party to push biden and the democrats left (which wont work in trump’s murica where the slightest political deviation will be criminalized). Or they want fascism to speed along the revolution they claim to want. Bc thats going great in russia -___-
It gives them another 4 years of absolving themselves of any bad things that happen in the government. “Not my fault”
Same smug cowardice that libertarians love to preen over.
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it’s the other that’s a bad guy.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
Fine, let’s run with this analogy:
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it’s the other that’s a bad guy.
We’re all in prison, both dudes will keep us there. One dude wants to murder your gay cell mate and give smaller cells to Hispanic prisoners. Voting, not voting, neither will win you your freedom. Your vote might make your friend’s life easier.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
Which political party is restricting the speech of LGBTQ+ people right now? Which party wants to put them all on a list? Which party is visibly anti-labor instead of just pretending not to be?
If you want change, fight for it. If Trump wins you activate hard mode.
If Trump wins you activate hard mode.
Good, thats when democrats come back from brunch and start paying attention to what the WH is doing.
There will be so much damage done before the dems get their shit together, if they ever do. Trump (or whoever takes over after him when he dies of stroke/heart attack) may not let us have a normal 2028 election.
As far as damage, check out “project 2025” if you don’t believe me. Many parts of federal government will be hogtied at best, and that includes ones that people like, like the EPA. I, for one, like environmental protections.
Even if the damage stops after one term, you can’t unfuck the thanksgiving turkey.
Edit: by the way, I’m no democrat, I just recognize we’re playing with fire here.
Project 2025 is the 50 year accumulation of ‘lesser evil’ voting. Democrats refusing to hold their own politicians accountable and lashing out at everyone trying to, has allowed evil to grow so large our very government has become authoritarian. The marginalized have had versions of P2025 all their lives, some communities for decades, others for centuries. While dems claimed to have their concerns in mind, they kept electing their oppressor. It only scares white liberals now because its finally something that will impact them directly. THIS is what leftists have been warning liberals about for years, but their only interest was protecting the status quo, a status quo that protected them and the privilege it granted. For right now they will oppose it, but when it gets rebranded as something positive in a few years and offered up by a democrat they will laud it as progress.
And everyone who votes for Biden agrees with you. We all also understand that now is not the fucking time
There is never a fucking time.
The day after Biden is inaugurated is a good time to start
To start what? Being ignored?
??
You were complaining about being ignored. How would it just start then?
You’re right. Being ignored will continue unabated, not start.
The important part is that the people are ignored forever.
So instead of trying to come together for the better of everybody you’re just going to whine the whole time? I already said I will 100% be on your side after this battle I’m in, yet you won’t put down your arms.
Fun fact: I’ve lived in Germany. I’ve seen ranked voting first hand and fully agree with it. I am on your side. Just that battle is not the battle worth fighting right now. Get the Non-dictator-wannabe in office first right now. That’s key
It never is the “fucking time”!
This is why every election cycle as the Republicans get ever more repugnant, the Democrats follow them since all they need to be is a tiny bit less bad - or at least that’s what they believe and all the Stockholm Syndrom victims preaching “we have no other choice” keep on confirming their belief every 4 years.
That’s how you ended up with a choice between two genocide supporters - because it has never been the “fucking time” for the last 3 decades so the Democracts felt confident to not give a rats arse about their electorate, only big donors and those who give gold-plated non-executive board memberships and million-dollar fees in the speech circuit to “friendly” politicians.
Yup. I agree. Let’s talk about this next year though and I’ll back you fully
There will be some other excuse for why it isn’t the time.
Like what?
Too soon after the election. To close to the next one. We just need 8 more decades of running for dogcatcher. We need to have ranked choice voting first. Biden obliquely hinted about thinking about doing something on a hot mic, so we need to give him a chance.
There is always an excuse. There will always be an excuse.
So you understand the sitting president wants this. Do you realize he also can’t do everything he wants because he HAS to get reelected or everything goes to shit?
Give him 4 more years and a lot more will get done
MLK addressed ‘a convenient time’ in a Letter from a Birmingham Jail. James Baldwin asked in 1989 how much time do they want for their progress.
Its never the right time, which keeps the duopoly in power and the working class subjugated.
If MLK was alive today, liberals would hate him as much as they did in the '60s
There’s a lot of nuance and discussion that is just ignored by online people regarding this discussion. I’m sick of the fighting.
Change your horrible voting system. FPTP is the root of all this craziness
Agreed. We’re getting some traction on this but it is absolutely not possible for this year’s presidential election. This is a long-term goal that should not affect your voting this year.
And next election you will say THE EXACT SAME THING. It’ll never be the “right time” unless it’s all already falling in your lap. Democrats suck because they completely lack initiative. They think that unless they control the House, Senate AND Presidential office that “it’s impossible to get anything done!”.
Nah, those high up are perfectly happy with this and you’re just feeding into it.
Already had a tankie tell me they’re voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
