• gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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    2 months ago

    I’m frankly getting pretty goddamn annoyed at all the people who relentlessly fail to understand that the PRC is heavily subsidizing production of basically all of their EVs in the interest of undercutting literally all other countries that are (or are trying to) produce EVs.

    By all means, research what I’m saying here to confirm its veracity - in fact I encourage you to. This is economic warfare, plain and simple.

      • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        …it is bad. It’s particularly bad because the PRC is running the show, and they very certainly do not have the best interest of any group but themselves (as in, the Party, and particularly, the Party Committee) in mind.

        • cum@lemmy.cafe
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          2 months ago

          Having a cheap supply chain that incentives and heavily costs cut for EVs is bad? I can’t follow this

          • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            The PRC is trying to crush any and all competition. This isn’t them being ecologically friendly or magnanimous in any way. The entire point of this is so they can do the best they can to corner the market, which is easier when the government you operate under just hands you money so you can immediately recoup substantial fraction of your balance sheet liabilities. They are doing this because they want to control the EV market, which will give the PRC a substantial amount of geopolitical power (case in point: look at Taiwan with their chip foundries). And, of course, Party officials and the corporate leadership of their car companies stand to make a fair bit of dosh too.

            More broadly, I don’t like when any country does this, including the US. The primary reason I’m singling the PRC out here is because that’s the topic of the post.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      And what do you think the EV rebates in the US are?

      Fuck the rich. I need a cheap, safe, and reliable vehicle to get to work.

      • Cris@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Allowing a country’s political party to position their industry in a monopolistic way is a bad idea. When one group controls an industry they much more easily exploit their consumers. Encouraging folks to buy ev’s in general is different from undercutting prices to create a dominant position in the market that can be exploited once you have no meaningful competitors

        That being said, we all know thats not why they’re doing it, they’re doing it to protect the interests of US auto makers, which also sucks

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          China is hardly going to be able to under cut the Big 3. Unless they just refuse to come down on their prices. More competition stops monopolistic forces, not the other way around. This narrative has been going around like our auto industry is some mom and pop shop that needs protection from Walmart. In reality they’re the monopolistic force in our market and you can see that by the insane prices they are charging.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Do you understand that free money on domestic purchases can be used however the corporation pleases? There’s not some magical divide.

          • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            Bro. The rebates go to the buyer. They don’t go to the corps. It’s specifically targeted to make it cheaper for US residents to buy EVs in America.

            Edit: actually, more foundational question: do you understand the difference between production subsidy and purchase rebate? And do you understand that the rebate is not applicable outside of the US?

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              So the company doesn’t get the sale price? Why does the customer need the rebate if they haven’t given the company that money in the first place?

              Do you not understand how a purchase works?

              Take your bad faith bullshit somewhere else.

    • czardestructo@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Its not just the EV, its every layer of the supply chain. From the lithium they mine, the batteries they make out of it, the circuits and metal fabricating. Their government subsidies the electricity, tools, facilities, labor, etc. I work in the engineering field and I see bits and pieces of this everyday and have seen it for decades because I’m forced to source parts from China.

      • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        I know. I’m trying to dumb it down a bit because the dipshits who argue about this stuff don’t seem to understand the incredible level of complexity of modern-day high tech consumer product manufacturing logistics.

    • sebinspace@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      EVE Online taught me this lesson. Those with the resources to do so will take a loss to price you out of the market, because they know you can’t take the losses nearly as long as they can.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        This isn’t a mom and pop shop. This is the Big 3 in the country with a GDP 10 trillion dollars higher.

        Stop spreading red panic, it’s not the 1950’s.

  • cum@lemmy.cafe
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    2 months ago

    Car makers can’t be bothered to compete so they lobbied (bribed) the government to just ban the competition.

  • thezeesystem@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Isn’t this just a ban on Chinese evs? Just with extra steps? Make it impossible financially to sell it in the US pretty much is a ban without saying it’s a ban

    • edric@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      I was too, until I found out they completely removed the driver instrument cluster, so even the speedometer is on the infotainment screen. I’m all for large screens, but the speedo and other necessary gauges should still be in front of the driver or on a HUD.

      • Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        100% agree. They really stripped that car down in order to make it work with a 27% import tax from China. Few physical buttons, a soundbar instead of door speakers, etc. There are a number of quirky design

        Android Automotive (not to be confused with Android Auto) is the only thing that makes me think I could make it work. More specifically, Google Assistant control for HVAC, defrost, etc.

        One of the things that drives me nuts about Telsa is that the buttons are missing, and the voice control is shit in comparison to Assistant and even janky ’ol Siri.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          To be fair soundbars are pretty awesome these days. Maybe not for an audiophile but they’re beyond “good enough” for regular people.

  • Kiosade@lemmy.ca
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    2 months ago

    I just cant imagine these somehow being better than trash-tier Teslas, let alone anything else.

  • Margot Robbie@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Although the BYDs and GWMs and MGs are getting popular in Australia, I have literally never seen a Chinese EV in the States outside of locally built BYD busses, and BYD cars have distinct designs that are fairly easy to spot. So this feels like posturing to me.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      They’ve been getting ready to ship to the US for a while. The EX30 arrived this year and is getting pretty good reception. It’s 35,000 and the best rated EV SUV at it’s price point. It’s 7 overall behind vehicles 20,000 more expensive.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I have literally never seen a Chinese EV in the States outside of locally built BYD busses, and BYD cars have distinct designs that are fairly easy to spot. So this feels like posturing to me.

      The Chinese business strategy has been to target East Asian, Indian, Russian, and West African car markets. They’re not trying to compete with US cars in the United States. They’re displacing US export markets in the Third World. You might be able to find them south of the border, however. In the first five months of 2023, Chinese exports to Latin America reached over 330,000 vehicles with a special focus on Mexico and Chile.

      Meanwhile, the US has had a long and storied tradition of open hostility to foreign car manufacturers. Consequently ten different car manufacturers have plants in the United States.

      These taxation and regulatory provisions are shockingly similar to the Chinese rules that guys like Biden and Trump deride as anti-competitive. And given the quality of US vehicles has long been sketchy at best, with a continued reliance on ICE engines in a market that increasingly favors the cheaper and more reliable electric vehicles, its questionable how long the Big Three domestic brands can even survive.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        The government will make sure they survive. They’re to big to be allowed to fail.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Hard to function at the multi-national scale if you constantly need bailouts.

              And there are plenty of Republicans who would love to see Detroit Go Bankrupt.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                I think they want the UAW gone. But GM and Ford give them too much money for them to get rid of the companies.

  • TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I was just talking to my dad about this the other day and I told him that it was only a matter of time before the US government goes after Chinese EV’s at the request of the US auto lobby.

    I didn’t think it would be this soon, though. Hurray for more garbage EV’s for $50,000+

    • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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      2 months ago

      Volvo EX30 compact EV SUV comes out this year with a base price of 35k. I consider that exceptionally reasonable (esp. for a Volvo). I’d buy one myself, but getting my house setup for EVs is a huge can of worms. My electric main is buried, I only have 100a service and my panel is full to the brim.

        • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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          2 months ago

          Isn’t 100A considered inside for an all electric home?

          Most homes nowadays are 200A. I could probably make it work, or get a smart panel to not have to worry about it…but upgrading service is practically impossible unless I can get someone else to pay for it. We’d have to remove a bunch of trees to trench to where the junction box is, and then trench across our driveway, too. Unless I lucked out and there oversized conduit there already, but I highly doubt it. As much as I’ve been told, the neighborhood was built with direct-bury service entrances.

            • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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              2 months ago

              That makes sense…if the charger is aware of its own load and the load of the whole house, it can slow down or stop charging to let the other stuff catch up.

              I don’t know where you are but 3-Phase is rather uncommon in US Residential. We use split-phase, where we have two 120v lines that use a common neutral, and we get 240v across the two 120v hots (with no neutral…but some 240V outlets do have a neutral leg for parts of the appliance needing 120V.

              A while ago, the YouTuber Technology Connections did a segment on the Span smart panel…and I think there’s a handful of others…that measures the load of each circuit and can triage circuits if there’s too much demand. This is really where smart appliances should be heading. It’s cool that my dryer can tell me how many KWh are consumed by a load, but I’d much rather it be able to cooperate with all my other loads and maybe turn off the heating element for a bit.

  • ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    God forbid anyone get a cheap EV before US car companies sort out which $50,000+ car brand can position itself as the “luxury” one before accepting that they need to build cheaper models.

    • miridius@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      The Chinese ones are cheap because they’re being subsidised by the Chinese govt to be sold that cheaply overseas as a deliberate economic attack tho

      • hark@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Meanwhile the US doesn’t subsidize (or even bail out) its too-big-to-fail auto companies, right? If you consider affordable products a deliberate economic attack, what do you call the extreme price gouging that the American auto companies are carrying out?

    • MadBigote@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Chinese vehicles suck. Here in mexico they’re all over the place, and their quality is questionable. MGs are a joke now. Good for the US to block these imports.

      • hark@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        If these Chinese vehicles suck so much, why are US car companies so afraid of them?

        • MadBigote@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Cuz China is well known for subsidizing production (well the US kinda does it too for some productos anyway). I personally wouldn’t buy a Chinese vehicle out of security and quality concerns, regardless of it being Ev or not.

          • hark@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            If the vehicles are so low quality and dangerous, then it wouldn’t be the job of tariffs but of bans, since there are minimum safety standards that still apply.

      • ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        I’m more annoyed that basically every western car company tried to make a $70,000 luxury EV to upscale their brand instead of making a sensible one that people will actually buy. If we want widespread adoption, we need more EVs that aren’t priced based on some pipe dream that people will wake up one day and think Ford is a luxury brand.

        • MadBigote@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          The tech for EVs is not quite there yet. Most technologies/services star as a luxury ok this cases where the manufacturing costs are still too high. For example Uber, which started as a luxury service before being widespread with the shitty service they became.

          That’s one of the reasons why I hope my country sets restrictions on these Chinese EVs, as there is not enough infrastructure in Mexico for EVs to even existe, and we can’t produce enough energy for them to be a viable solution for transportation. Heck, I’m even with Toyota and believe EVs are not a tech we should be investing in, and the world will not move to EVs as a widespread mode of transportation. i certainly hope so, because people buying EVs thinking they are the most green solution are not seeing the elephant in the room.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Bullshit. The EX30 is here and selling for 35,000. The tech is mature, they just don’t want to serve the average consumer.

            • MadBigote@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              What tech are you talking about? I’m talking about the grid not being able to serve everyone switching to EVs anytime soon. Also people don’t factor the batteries needing replacement after some years like any other appliance running on batteries, and those can be quite expensive to replace.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                The car tech. But also, using Mexico’s power infrastructure as a guide to American tariffs on Chinese EVs doesn’t make sense.

          • ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            I mean, we need to stop taking carbon out of the ground and lighting it on fire so it becomes atmospheric carbon. I’m not expecting middle income countries to carry the load but it’s way easier in a rich country like the U.S. or E.U. to switch to electric and switch power generation to renewables or nuclear than it is to (for instance) convince everyone to stop eating beef.

            In no way do I think electric cars by themselves to solve the problem. It’s gotta be a comprehensive strategy. I live in a place that’s prone to hurricanes (New Orleans) and I added solar+batter to my house and got a plugin hybrid. It’s actually better because every few years, a storm knocks out the power grid for a few days and I can still juice up my car an bit and air condition at least one room. So, oil/gas power is unreliable for me when I need it most. But we’re on the front lines, being below sea level, and everyone is going to get there if we keep lighting carbon on fire and making carbon dioxide.

  • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    I’m usually against tariffs but in this case it seems like a pretty fair tit for tat to China basically removing the budgetary concerns for their manufacturers that said manufacturer’s international counterparts won’t have.

    Subsidizing local production for local markets is fine enough, but exporting products made with an infinite money glitch active is more or less an intentional play at market capture.

    And before some sinoboo tries to gatcha me I do also object to examples where the west subsidizes domestic production for international markets.

    • umbrella@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      subsidizing production isnt a bad thing.

      it makes for a quicker transition to ev. its only a problem now because china is doing it.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      How moral of you to object to the US government doing the same thing.

      Can I have a means of transportation I can fucking afford now?

    • Pulptastic@midwest.social
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      2 months ago

      I prefer the circular solution. Make a tariff equal to the delta, and use the tariff to subsidize local production and reduce the delta.

    • tsonfeir@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.

      I’m no lover of China, but fuck the capitalist auto companies.

      • Novi@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        I was born into a car centric society. So much so they design the places we live around them. Including dense residential far away from employment that requires transportation. Chop all attempts at decent public transit and now you have created a market of completely artificial demand. Which the law says cars must become more expensive. I have to have a car because of the awful design choices made by unqualified politicians past. Fuck the auto industry. They could have been out saviors by being the example of what union companies do but instead chose violence.

      • Zipitydew@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        That $10k Chinese car cost $20k to make. A competitor undercutting the market that much leads to monopolization. When that competitor is being bankrolled by a foreign government it’s potentially even a hostile act.

        People have been mad for decades about what Walmart did to retail in the US. Taking steps to prevent that from also happening with the auto industry should be appreciated.

      • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        Ah yes, great way to fuck over our capitalists, by supporting their worse capitalists instead

          • Buttons@programming.dev
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            2 months ago

            US auto makers were like “we love the free market”, then people bought cheaper cars from China and they said “wait, not that free!”

            • Lavitz@lemmings.world
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              2 months ago

              No ethical way to spend in a capitalist society. It kind of is what it is, cause I gotta eat. Also certified “you criticize capitalism yet you live in it moment” to you sir.

              • nymwit@lemm.ee
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                2 months ago

                are all unethical choices equal? Surely there are better and worse things?

      • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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        2 months ago

        I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.

        You can’t make that same car in the United States for anything like the same price. Even ignoring the Chinese Governments heavy subsidies there’s still a massive cost gap due to worker compensation, cost of compliance with safety regulations, cost of compliance with environmental regulations, and a whole host of other things.

        The cost of manufacturing in the United States is radically higher than it is in China and that simply isn’t fixable unless you’re going to unwind Union pay deals, remove environmental laws, and reduce safety restrictions.

        You cannot have both, so which are you choosing? Are you going to go with your wallet like a self absorbed capitalist or are you going to support union workers, stronger environmental laws, and more worker safety?

        • bamboo@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          While I can’t say any of this is wrong, you’re missing likely the single biggest component inflating the cost of US manufacturing: profit margins. Every step of the supply chain has a profit margin attached. Sometimes just a few percent, but often double digits. These compound, so a 5% margin on a simple component will see an additional 15% when sold as part of an assembly, which is then marked up another 20% when sold as part of the finished good. There’s also financialization which burdens US companies. Companies generally need to take loans to fund their operations, and end up having to pay heavy interest fees and rent which also drives up cost. Workers and environmental protections are more expensive, but in practice they are relatively minor compared to a lot of other inefficiencies US industry struggles with.

          • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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            2 months ago

            Every step of the supply chain has a profit margin attached. Sometimes just a few percent, but often double digits.

            That’s true in China as well. The only difference is in the price of what is being marked up.