I got banned from the forums after having been considered “too combative” for not taking it lightly that a moderator lectured me on unrelated forum etiquette rules.
I wanted to discuss a legitimate technical issue, which turned out to be coil whine - at the time I did not know it was called that. A community member offered some advice, and I asked them kindly whether they would like to remove a particular question which I’ve answered in the very previous original post. They became offended by the very suggestion of this and deleted their whole reply, including the useful stuff. The moderator stepped in here and gave me a petty little lecture on all kinds of behavior norms, which I one by one refuted - to no avail, the thread just got locked.
Ok, fresh start. Let’s open another topic because I’m not here to bicker - I have an issue to discuss. The new topic got closed within 10 minutes by a mod, threatening me with a ban if I open it again.
I thought that was kinda ridiculous, because I’m a Framework customer and I want to discuss an issue with my laptop, so I opened anothe topic. Sure enough, it got closed and I got banned for a month.
A month has passed, and my problem is still there. One day when I’m browsing the interwebs to understand my issue, I stumble upon another Framework forum post discussing the same thing. My ban being lifted, I jump into the conversation and confirm that I have the same issue, and I share my story of having been banned after trying to discuss this. As you might guess, a mod appears, closes this topic as well, and states that the real reason I’ve been banned is that I have… wait for it… FREIGHT FORWARDED! And proceeds to permaban me on the spot with the notice “too combative”! What the hell, Framework!!!
I hadn’t freight forwarded and I have no possible explanation as to why this mod was jumping at me like that. Anyway, let’s take to reddit to complain about this. Quickly, a mob of zealous Framework fans forms, trampling over each other trying to lecture me that freight forwarding is prohibited etc… I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT FREIGHT FORWARDING! I was complaining about a mod accusing me of freight forwarding and banning me for this bogus reason! And guess what - eventually the thread gets shut down after inevitably devolving into a discussion of freight forwarding (to which Framework has a similarly bogus attitude, although that has changed slightly with them conceding to European single market regulations) - the Reddit thread gets locked as well and I get permabanned from the subreddit for “discussing freight forwarding”!
Ever since, I message the mods on Reddit every now and then, reminding them of the utterly crazy way they’ve been treating me, and the usual response is just a temporary mute so that I can’t message them further.
Does anyone else have a similar experience?
Context is important, I can see why you’re not including it and are trying to color it by explaining instead of linking.
They literally told you not to engage in moderation discussions after you did once, and you followed that up by tripling down and attacking the mods directly. Ban justified.
Then, (you even admit so) you “jump in” (a 6 month necro) and do it again,, bashing mods and the forum and the product, and discussing your moderation again, all in one post. 2nd ban justified.
They do mention that you have done the shipping thing, which is now hearsay from both sides to us users, and is immaterial to the other bannable offenses honestly.
I message the mods on Reddit every now and then, reminding them of the utterly crazy way they’ve been treating me
Muting justified.
Edit: found your reddit, with lots of posts in /r/Hungary, where framework doesn’t ship, implying a rather large possibility there was “freight forwarding” in some manner in your case. Not to mention your literal “PSA” thread about freight forwarding, in which you “disclaim” it isn’t about that and if we think so we’re imagining it…
Reading this is a turbo yikes from me, chief. Much, much worse than OP presents, for obvious reason.
I read the thread and oh boy… yeah.
Thanks for doing the legwork.
I gotta say, transforming coil whine into ban whine is almost impressive.
Too bad OP isn’t self-aware enough to see why people would want to avoid interacting with them across different platforms.Tbf I also message the mods on self aware wolves just to annoy and harass them over their stupid ways.
I just don’t pretend I am the good guy while doing so.
Seems like you found plenty of reason to hate me, but you’ve missed the point entirely. And sorry, if you think people are to be told what discussion to engage in, you’re a barbarian to me who ignores the value of free speech.
This is the root of our differences: you believe that my annoying behavior justifies excising me from an online forum, based on an exaggerrated hallucination of potential harm I’m able to do by “attacking” people (NB: I was debating) - while I was trying to discuss a very specific issue with the laptop and was not refraining from engaging in other topics other people brought up (such as my perceived bad behavior).
Free speech is important. Permabanning people is an extreme measure that shouldn’t be used except in the most radically problematic cases. Liberally permabanning people because they are annoying goes against civilizational norms. Communities should not support such behavior from companies, this is an outrageous abuse of power.
Free speech is important in public spaces. Online, for the most part, isn’t public, it’s a network of privately owned systems… You’re on someone else’s computer, they can do whatever they want with the data you put there. Debate isn’t permitted there if they say so (and did in this case) and you agreed to that so they would allow you access to their system. Whether it was “annoying” or not is immaterial. You broke the rules you agreed to. That’s it really. You can talk about this literally anywhere but their systems.
I harbor no hate at all, just providing context for your disingenuously framed post. You are definitely a radically problematic case, considering your posts. I don’t care what you discuss, but the owners of these systems do.
If I ran a forum, I would definitely want the ability to remove people from my system that are harassing others, by my definition, regardless of what yours may be.
Seems like you’re exremely trigger happy to call unpleasant behavior harassment. Harassment in online spaces means incessant abusive communication directed to someone - I was being neither abusive nor incessant. I just didn’t take accusations and preaching from an imaginary moral high ground very well.
Of course forums are privately owned. Civil rights such as free speech were fought for and won by previous generations exactly in order to put an end to everything being privately owned and behavior dictated. Seems like these days there is too little awareness of this and people are giving away their rights singingly, defending corporate censorship on the grounds of private property. That’s a bonkers attitude if you ask me, calling my unpleasant comments harassment and defending the power and money hungry capitalist machine’s rights to control how I can and cannot waste the precious bytes and milliwatts of their servers with my unwanted comments.
To someone who wants to look up information about Framework before making an informed decision whether to buy their products, their forums and the subreddit is public space and we should treat it as such.
their forums and the subreddit is public space
They are moderated public spaces, there are plenty of actually public spaces to discuss things.
Coil whine is probably not the most well known thing, but I’m surprised you never tried to Google something about “high pitched computer noises” before posting about it.
I did try to google it, and I didn’t actually find out what’s going on. My googling skills could be better, I know.
They are moderated public spaces, there are plenty of actually public spaces to discuss things.
The problem with this argument is you’re basically saying “go away”. But you’re not pointing to any useful locations to go away to. In fact, as I’ve stated, if a newcomer is looking up information, they are going to look in the official forums and Reddit - here especially Reddit is the problematic one as it looks like an actually public space but it’s totally corporate controlled as well.
Of course companies are able to control their forums. But we shouldn’t simply accept this as a fact of life and move on. We should demand standards of privately maintained public spaces that don’t allow for easy distortion of information in order to generate profit.
The problem with this argument is you’re basically saying “go away”. But you’re not pointing to any useful locations to go away to.
Suggesting alternatives is not their responsibility.
Of course companies are able to control their forums. But we shouldn’t simply accept this as a fact of life and move on.
That’s what we agree to do by using their systems, though. They provide a service for free, while in exchange, we promise to play by their rules. It’s FAR from ideal, but being disruptive is not the answer.
We should demand standards of privately maintained public spaces that don’t allow for easy distortion of information in order to generate profit.
That would be a fair solution.
Get help, please!
Great argument, I’m saving this for later.
Sadly in 2023, you might be right, but you have to be nice for it to matter.
So you have to either deal with it and be nice, or just don’t deal with people in general.
Yes, that’s not really freedom of speech, but it’s been dead a long time anyway, anyone saying otherwise it’s delusional.
Well luckily it’s not an animal so it can be resurrected. Seriously though, it begins at public demand for it, and not normalizing abuse of moderation powers.
Also, great detective job, Sherlock, I’m deeply involved with Hungarian society, what gives? The problem with your mindset is that at some point you switch into a mode of “finding issues with the person”, not engaging with their arguments. My argument is that the mods got mad at me, and for this reason they’ve blocked me of talking about coil whine, which was my original purpose, and there is no legitimate reason to block me from it.
Also, just because Framework is hostile towards freight forwarding doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing or an illegal thing to do. In fact, they’ve conceded to European single market laws which they were previously contemptuously just calling “stipulations”. I wasn’t doing freight forwarding anyway but I was defending it on a different occasion, why are you bringing this here? Oh, right, because you switched into the “finding issues with the person” mode. Also known as “ad hominem”.
Is this the way you talked on the other platforms?
gave me a petty little lecture on all kinds of behavior norms, which I one by one refuted
The fact that you’re in here ranting about it, and boasting about “refuting” them, shows maybe they had a point.
That’s blunt, but… hey. You were asking someone for help, then looking the gift horse in the mouth, then “refuting” suggestions that it could rub people the wrong way. If people weren’t already annoyed, that will definitely do the trick.
Maybe you didn’t intend to, I can sympathize somewhat, but that is definitely how it comes across just by reading this.
I’m sure they had some points, although the original mod’s citings were utterly irrelevant and the whole lecture was just incoherent drivel, you can go check it out if you’re interested.
I understand it rubs people the wrong way. I’m holding them to higher standards though - to standards of not banning people based on being “rubbed the wrong way”. That’s… backwards. Human civilization is built on higher understanding, not acting on knee jerk feelings. And I assume fully that Framework is not acting on knee jerk feelings, they know very well what they are doing. And it’s terrifying.
It really doesn’t matter. No matter how right you think you are: if you do this sort of thing, people will likely think you are being a dick.
No I think it really does matter. Public opinion can be shifted. It has huge inertia but people should be pushing it in the right way to begin with.
Best of luck, particularly if this is the way you try to fix the issue.
Not when you’re clearly in the wrong.
People try to help you and you turn it into pissing contest. You’d rather focus on feeding your ego than being appreciative. I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind would want to help someone so condescending and fixated on fueling their fragile ego.
I’ve come out of this thread thinking more about Framework, not less.
Right or wrong. You’re clearly a very combative person.
- You’re here litigating the issue. 2. In your original post you rebutted each of your warning points. 3. You made a new post, also talking about how your last post was deleted. 4. And then in a different thread when you were responding with a comment, you also mentioned that you were previously twice deleted. 5. You’re not talking about coil whine even now.
I suspect if you made a fresh post, after a bit of cool down time, and only talked about coil whine and. didn’t mention anything at all regarding your previous moderator interactions. IE not being meta… It would have been fine.
Just to be clear, I’m not saying you’re wrong, you could be right. But needing to be right invites conflict.
Honestly, especially on the internet, nobody cares if you were treated unfairly in the past and have emotional baggage, doubly so on technical forums.
Stay focused on the topic (the technology), start every interaction fresh giving people the benefit of the doubt and you will have a good time.
after a bit of cool down time
This is the crux of the issue. I should not be responsible for managing moderator’s emotions with cool down time. They should be, period.
edit: to clarify, I have started an entirely fresh thread. It was the moderators carrying vengeance for me. Here’s the evidence: https://community.frame.work/t/extremely-high-pitched-sound-coming-from-around-cpu/29975
As you say this is the crux of the issue. Your emotional state is coloring your ability to have a conversation constructively.
You need to cool down, and approach threads without previous emotional baggage
I suspect if you made a fresh post, after a bit of cool down time, and only talked about coil whine and. didn’t mention anything at all regarding your previous moderator interactions. IE not being meta… It would have been fine.
I did make a fresh post, only talking about coil whine, not mentioning anything at all regarding my previous moderator interactions, IE I was not being meta. That’s my point. I was totally cool.
The moderators weren’t. That’s a problem. For you and for me. My attitude is not a real problem to anyone. You are free to abandon this conversation any time. Framework and its business policies are here to stay.
I read that as you needing the cool down time.
I didn’t need cooldown time, my follow up threads were entirely focused on the coil whine. I didn’t carry any combative attitude with me. It was the mods who didn’t cool down and shut down my further attempts to discuss the topic because of my person.
I mean, looking at your other replies here? You’re combative and need cool down time. Maybe try logging out for a few days to clear your head.
You can’t even hold a conversation of short, written sentences and you’re saying I need to clear my head? Someone needs to look into the mirror. You were the one who said you read @[email protected]’s remark of “cooldown time” as me needing cooldown time, and I’m letting you know that I didn’t need cooldown time because I was completely cool and started a new thread entirely on topic. Now you’re confusing your own sentence of having interpreted “needing cooldown time” to me in the past with stating it now about me in the present. It’s ridiculous how instantly you turn to demeaning ad hominem remarks once you identify someone as a bad person.
You’re nitpicking and arguing with other comments you disagree with. That’s combative.
This reads like you’re emotionally invested in this quite heavily, and you’re having a hard time seeing other perspectives. Take a day or two to walk away, then come back when you’re in a more regulated space and try to read the original comments here again and reflect on things within your locus of control: your actions and your response to your emotions.
I hope you can see the kindness of the many people here trying to help you. ♥️
Edit: In a couple days, try again to read to understand, not reading to find the mistakes/problems.
So what if I’m combative? How does that affect your life? Something about my story is irking people, and it’s all too easy to project it onto my combative behavior. I say it’s indeed the way Framework is subtly but obscenely overstepping boundaries. Can’t do anything about this message? A rational first reaction is to hate the messenger. <3
That’s exactly what I was saying. You need to stop fighting battles online. Each post should have a clear conscience, no emotional baggage from previous post with different people. You don’t need to fight every fight. Just focus on the post topic. No need to sling mud, or try to re-litigate previous moderation decisions
It sounds like every step of the way, on multiple sites, everyone you’ve interacted with has told you they find your tone combative and your behavior unacceptable.
Usually, when everyone around you in multiple different contexts tells you you’re wrong, you’re probably wrong.
Many people tell me I’m wrong, and usually what they mean is I’m annoying. They are also ignoring the points I’m right about. Nothing new there. I want people to focus on how Framework is overstepping the boundaries though, because I’m not the important issue here. You will probably never interact with me ever again, so why focus on my traits? Framework is here to stay in the public space, so let’s focus on what they are doing wrong - and you know what? People do understand this, and they feel powerless about it, and they take it out on me instead as a form of cognitive dissonance reduction. I don’t blame anyone for doing this. But do note how much effort people suddenly put into correcting the behavior of someone they have no interest in. Funny, isn’t it?
What we are trying to teach you is that nobody cares if your right, or wrong.
They care if their future interactions with framework will be good or bad, your not giving anyone actionable data that their future interactions with framework will be bad.
Your experience is basically - If you go start a fight with a company, they ban you. Noted, most people thinking about buying a framework laptop arn’t also planning on starting fights, so your experience isn’t transferable.
So, not sure how to say this on the Internet with kind intentions coming through, but that’s my intent.
All of the above sounds completely reasonable on part of the mods. Community norms are incredibly important for maintaining community cohesion. Unmoderated descend into hate speech remarkably quickly.
Essentially, someone helped you then asked a clarifying question. Instead of kindly saying “thank you! I think I answered that in the OP when I said [quote], but let me know if that’s not what you mean!” it sounds like you were a jerk to someone who was volunteering their time to help you.
Then a mod comes and tells you not to be a jerk to the volunteers helping you, and you try to “rules lawyer” the mod.
In the new thread did you mention that your previous thread was closed for no reason? If so, completely reasonable it was closed. Even if not, I think the mod’s mistake was not giving you a temporary ban immediately for being a jerk and not following community norms, not for deleting your second identical thread where you’re likely to be combative again.
I could go on, but at every turn you have blamed other people for shutting you down. The only common denominator here is you.
Tone is very hard to read over the Internet, so miscommunications and misreading intent is very common. This means that being misinterpreted is the norm in the Internet, and isn’t personal. Just kindly clarify your intent/meaning and move on. There’s no point arguing over the Internet, especially with someone in charge of policing content who doesn’t have any shits to give about replying to a wall of text telling them they don’t know what they’re doing.
Being a customer didn’t give you any special privileges or rights to ignore community norms and rules.
Take a break and try to be more kind next time.
Community norms are incredibly important for maintaining community cohesion. Unmoderated descend into hate speech remarkably quickly.
Then disallow hate speech and take action on it. Easy.
you were a jerk to someone who was volunteering their time to help you
Was I really? Here’s my comment to them:
I’ve stated in the post that the sound is on no matter whether the laptop is plugged in or not. Would you mind deleting this question so as to not clutter the topic?
And here’s their later response admitting that they overreacted:
I admit openly I got pissed because I spend valuable time here trying to help others on my own will but asking me to delete a question “to not clutter your topic” felt rude and out of place.
There is no harm in repeating it once again, I sincerly did not see the statement about the power source.
Either way, hope you get this sorted. Sorry for my bad mood. All the best.
They literally said exactly what I suggested you’d done: there’s no harm in repeating the information!
Don’t know what now to say to you, friend. Maybe also that norms are important for keeping spaces positive places for everyone, and being defensive and combative isn’t a helpful strategy anywhere in life, least of all online where there are no visual cues to help read people.
I hope you use this as a chance for introspection and growth. :)
You might want to delete this post so you don’t clutter this discussion board.
After reading the context posted in the comments, which you obviously neglected to link for very obvious reasons, your “censorship” is 100% justified.
You have a slave’s morals
You have a slave’s morals
What exactly does this mean? How are a slave’s morals any different from any other human being’s morals?
Actually, I don’t care. Don’t answer that. Why not just delete your reply, so we don’t clutter this conversation?
You’re trying to trigger me, but there’s no reason. I’m engaging with mostly everyone anyway. That’s why I’ve opened the thread.
You have a slave’s morals as in you find it entirely justified that some people just get deleted from the public space at the behest of the powers that be. That’s the nature of things in a slave’s world.
In the world that a free citizen demands, you don’t get permanently muted for rubbing mods the wrong way.
There is no attempt to trigger you. I copied your very aggressive attitude and you recognized yourself that it was aggressive by saying I was trying to trigger you.
you find it entirely justified that some people just get deleted from the public space at the behest of the powers that be.
This is entirely untrue. Your “deletion” was justified because you were needlessly aggressive, likely breaking forum rules (while I cannot explicitly verify this, being aggressive is pretty much universally against a rule in forums), in addition you received a warning from moderators and purposely ignored it. Not once, but twice. Additionally, you disparaged the product and forum staff/volunteers (I do not know if the forum moderators are paid staff or not).
I am a forum administrator myself (not for Framework, a different site), and I would have banned you too.
In the world that a free citizen demands, you don’t get permanently muted for rubbing mods the wrong way.
Free citizen of what country? Should your country’s laws supercede those of others? What are you, a Soveriegn Hungarian? If the security on private property tell you to stop doing something, and you keep doing it, then you cannot complain when you get kicked out.
Yikes. Literally everything you said here is a red flag and then someone went and provided links to your behavior to solidify those red flags. Please stop treating those that just try to help you in that manner. It’s incredibly rude and hurtful.
Incredibly rude sentence from me towards person who was just try to help me. You copy it here. Now, or your statement is retracted.
I don’t know what your sentence means, but it doesn’t seem nice. Dude you really need to learn to communicate with others on the internet better.
My ban being lifted, I jump into the conversation and confirm that I have the same issue, and I share my story of having been banned after trying to discuss this.
This is where you fucked up. Relitigating bans in unrelated threads is the easiest way to get labeled a troublemaker.
Edit: Especially temporary bans. Take the L and move on.
Also, complaining on Reddit about how you were treated in the forums is similarly not productive. They probably aren’t even paid mods on Reddit.
Thanks for the pragmatic advice, I appreciate it!
When one person is an asshole, there’s a good possibility they’re an asshole. When everyone is an asshole, it’s time to look in the mirror, because you are likely the asshole.
deleted by creator
When it’s 100 people pointing at one, insisting that they are perceiving everyone as assholes, when in fact they aren’t, that’s a peculiar situation.
This is fairly concerning behavior but might I ask what the original issue was?
Disclaimer: I do not yet have a framework nor have I even begun the ordering process. I’m awaiting solid reviews on the Framework 16. I am just a random nerd.
It’s coil whine around 19500 Hz, which not everyone hears, but I do, and it’s quite disturbing.
Look how even here there are mad people who will just downvote anything I say. What about my story causes people to be this upset? The world has gone mad.
The world has gone mad.
While in general, I agree, in this case it is 100% a YOU problem.
I’ve noticed that people are very quick to downvote here for seemingly no reason. It’s best to ignore it.
Coil whine is something modern electronics tend to (suffer might be the right word?) From and unfortunately there isn’t much you can personally do. The coil whine itself is caused by the power delivery circuit.
This is general information not specific to the FW laptop. If you’d like to learn more id look into GPU coil whine as that’s usually where it is discussed the most.
Have you ever been tested for autism?
As someone who is neurodivergent, that is pretty offensive. Many autists have empathy, awareness and courtesy. Traits not demonstrated by OP.
Have you ever been tested for being prone to ad hominem derailment? That’s right, you just have, and you came out positive!
It might help with your combative nature. It isn’t an attack on you, but you’re clearly suffering something. Maybe ODD.
To be clear, it does sound odd that you were originally banned from the forum for talking about freight forwarding… but beyond that, YTA.
You deserved everything for being a total dick to the first person who helped you, and then going on a tirade against the mods.
If I was a total dick, you will quote me and copy here one of my sentences where I was a dick. You won’t because I wasn’t.
https://community.frame.work/t/extremely-high-pitched-constant-sound-coming-from-laptop/29861
I didn’t think it would be that bad but holy lols
Tl;Dr op is an insufferable prick and rightly gets shut down by the mods every time he tries to stir the pot again.
they dont like freight forwarding? L
They REALLY don’t like it. I was traveling on a business trip to Japan when I had a framework issue, and their support system was very very keen to say they didn’t support re-shipping.
It does make sense, they don’t have a support network globally, sending lithium ion batteries through the mail internationally is a nightmare, and opens up lots of liabilities. Not to mention customs problems. It’s much easier to say you don’t support it.
Yes but they don’t control where you buy their product. If you buy it in e.g. the Netherlands, you have made a purchase contract in the Netherlands. Framework don’t get to dance out of it by claiming that you’ve freight forwarded or are located in a different country now. Selling goods is a heavily regulated business in every country, as well as warranty. If they don’t support reshipping in Japan, that’s their prerogative, but as long as you’re upholding your end of the deal, including shipping the laptop back to the Netherlands for pick-up, their ToS does not trump consumer law. This is what most people in the community don’t get, and this is what Framework is slyly playing upon, because they are obviously understanding this, yet they’ve been consistently trying to shroud this topic into confusion behind the taboo term of Freight Forwarding. Disingenious, dishonest, despicable behavior if you ask me.
As a corporate entity if they know, or have a reasonable ability to know, that you are illegally reshipping lithium ion batteries that aren’t rated for international shipping. They have a fiduciary obligation to not engage with you. You’re correct they have no control once they’ve sold the device to you, but they also have a reasonable obligation to not encourage activity which would violate shipping laws
Reasonably knowing that someone is illegally reshipping something is a very high bar to jump. Why would they have to know where someone is shipping their laptop?
And most importantly, my point was entirely about having already sold the device. So, yeah. They can deny service to you up front for any reason, but they realizing you’ve flown in under their radar does not somehow void warranty law and other consumer protection regulations.
If there’s discussion in their moderated forums about people re-shipping, they now have a reasonable knowledge of that activity. And that could violate their shipping requirements, or their product licensing. So it makes sense for them to ban that discussion on their controlled discussion forums
