Without a Palestinian state and a multi-national presence to enforce it there will never be peace. The motive for attacks will remain.
A Palestinian state wouldn’t fix it either, considering that Hamas and similar groups in the area very explicitly want ALL the territory and want Israel to not exist at all.
Great, then it’s solved. The only solution is genocide. Doesn’t matter which side, just pick one, and kill them all.
That is what you’re saying, right?
Don’t necessarily have to pick one. Both would solve it too.
There is no good solution to the current state of things.
Good is relative. What you mean is that there isn’t a perfect solution. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
So if your argument is that a two state solution isn’t perfect, therefore we shouldn’t do it, then that’s tacit approval for my first solution…a final solution if you will. Just pick a side, and poof.
If you’re not comfortable with genocide, then a two state solution is the only viable path forward with any hope of chance of being made into a good outcome, even if not a perfect one.
So pick one: a final solution or a two-state solution, but stop with the wishy-washy “the status quo must remain until a perfect solution is found”.
To be clear, I support a free Palestine and condemn Israel’s actions.
But, something that you, and most people I see discussing this, are missing is that this isn’t just a political or land issue. This is a fundamentalist religious issue too. Both parties believe they have a sacred right to the land and that the other does not. The two parties ideologies are fundamentally incompatible with anything other than the removal of the other party. There is not, and never has been, a road to a two state solution and the actions we’re seeing now have likely always been the plan for Israel. Israel has squeezed and squeezed the Palestinians until, surprise!, they (or at the very least a subset of them) decide it’s time to fight back. That’s the excuse Israel has been looking for, an event large and egregious enough for an all out assault and to ultimately push the Palestinians into the ocean and remove them from the equation.
That’s like calling the Russian invasion of Ukraine a holy Christian war.
The Zionists very clearly do not have any right to Palestine and the Palestinians very clearly do have the right to their land.
The fact that israel has been committing genocide for over 75 years there doesn’t magically give them the right to anything.
You’ll notice, I don’t support either’s religious claim in my comment. I’m conveying what they believe and why it’s an untenable situation. It is, in fact, a religious war.
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a political war. They are not the same.
Don’t get me wrong I’d love a two state solution or really any solution where they stop killing each other. But in order for a two state solution to happen, you need both sides to agree on the borders, and good luck with that.
I would love a solution in which they both integrate into one state with equal rights… I know it sounds impossible
They are far too eager to kill each other for that to work.
Just remind the Israeli government who holds the biggest stick and which hand feeds them.
Reminder that the UN has tried to implement the two state solution before but the Arab side said “No we want all of it”
Hamas has explicitly said they would accept the 1969 borders with no settlers, no IDF presence, and an actual Palestinian state that’s not controlled by Israel.
So try again.
The same Hamas whose charter explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people? Sure.
Go read it. No seriously. Stop letting Israel tell you what it says, and actually go read it.
Here’s the link.
They clearly do not like Zionism and would love to have the entire region back. But they lay out their demands for peace pretty clearly.
Also in the linked 2017 charter they state
- The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
Which certainly sounds like them wanting to destroy Israel.
They’re saying they don’t consider the state of Israel to be legal. That does not mean they intend to keep fighting after their demands for a Palestinian state are met. They are very clear about their peace goals and they do not include the dissolution of Israel.
Declare our state legitimate, but also
Your state is illegitimate.
Sounds entirely peaceful and would not lead to further future conflicts.
And then you look at their original 1988 charter,
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Where they say…
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Or,
“ Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). “
Well no. Because this charter is meant to supersede that. Just like nobody accuses the US of banning alcohol after having replaced that amendment with one saying alcohol is fine again. Trying to hang the original charter around their neck like an anchor is a propaganda thing meant to prevent them from moderating.
Do we want less violence or more?
Considering they have still been launching rockets at civilian centers not to mention killing innocent Israelis, taking hostages, etc since putting in the new charter, Im not sure I believe them.
An Israeli state wouldn’t fix it either, considering that Kahanites and similar groups in the area very explicitly want ALL the territory and want Palestine to not exist at all.
You’re down voted for truth.
Many Palestinians would probably be happy for recognition of state I imagine but Hamas very likely would not. It’s currently a convenient excuse for them but if it happened I highly doubt they would stop trying to lob missiles over the border and be a peaceful neighbour, even if Israel stopped trying to steal land.
Not saying it shouldn’t happen but it’s not some magical solution like many seem to think.
Israel has been building settlements in the West Bank for years. To say nothing of their bombings in Lebanon. They are a state that consistently does not respect borders.
Yeah these Guys are so wrong in their argument
‘hAmAS wOnT aCCept a TwO sTaTE SoLuTIOn sO LeTs GEnOciDe pAlesTiniAnS’
Well Netanyahu and right wing Israelis also won’t, include that part as well, the only way is by forcing both of them by some way
If they didn’t stop they would lose all support. They’ve explicitly said they’d accept a Palestinian state with the 1969 borders or a single state solution with rights for everyone.
At the end of the day though, those are also just the best solutions. Genocide certainly ain’t it.
Imagine how much better the world would be if Jews migrated to the US instead of directly in the middle of people who hate them the most.
Zionism is a plague that is responsible for untold damage.
I mean that kind of happened already. There’s a reason why the United States has the second highest Jewish population in the world, less only than Israel and not by much. Rampant anti semitisim in Europe among other reasons drove many to emigrate to the US. Between 1880 and 1914 alone, 2 million Ashkenazi Jewish people immigrated to the United States to escape ethnic cleansing pogroms in Eastern Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States
People in Palestine actually welcome them, and it is not Jew it is the Zainoist movement that were supported ( not sure who exactly gave them guns ) and started two organizations that committed multiple massacres before forming Israel.
People in Palestine actually welcome them
Hhmmmmmmmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world
These were already after Zionists were already moving to the land in droves and trying to set up the Israeli state. That’s like saying the Native Americans were violent anti-Americans for attacking settler colonies during the Wild West. The process of displacement and settler colonialism was already way underway by that time and seen in real time by the local. Rather than give them their own state as promised after WWI, Britain instead not only kept Palestine, but used it so all the antisemitic European countries had somewhere to put their Jews. Revisionist Zionists happily accepted this arrangement and once they had the numbers, started setting up terrorist and paramilitary groups and prepping for their future state.
But Jewish immigration has been happening for awhile before the violence had started, and during that time, relations between the groups were almost entirely peaceful and accepting. Keep in mind that migrations were happening in the 1800’s and even earlier, way before your Wikipedia time line starts.
Btw, some of these Zionist groups tried to coordinate with the Nazis, too. And they’ve never reconciled with that. One of them became prime minister, and Netanyahu has a figure of the founder of Lehi behind his desk, too.
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi Jews who fled to Israel after almost all of them, some 850,000 in total, were expelled or pressured out of Muslim-majority Middle Eastern countries from 1948 through the 1950s. About 72% (650,000) settled in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
The notion that Jewish Israelis are just Europeans is a profoundly racist and ignorant belief.
A couple notes:
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Mizrahi is a modern term used to erase the European origin of many Jewish communities living in the former Ottoman empire.
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This argument is often used by Zionists to suggest that the majority of the modern Israeli population is made up of indigenous groups. This is not correct.
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Even if that’s true they certainly jumped on the settler colonialism bandwagon from Europe quick enough.
instead of directly in the middle of people who hate them the most.
It’s not even that. Zionists caused the Middle East to hate Jews.
The only thing you’re actually saying here is that you’re not familiar with the history of the Middle East prior to about 1948.
Uh… We should be counting from 1917, and before that point anti-semitism in the Middle East wasn’t anything close to the point it is today.
Blaming Jews for the antisemitism they experience is antisemitism 101, buddy.
No that’s not what I meant. I’m blaming Zionists for the anti-semitism all Jews experience in the middle east. Because that’s exactly what happened; most Middle Eastern countries (including Ottoman Palestine) had Jews who could live peacefully before Zionists started their settler colonialism project. I’m not saying it’s justified, don’t get me wrong; it’s stupid and horrible and I sincerely believe the pogroms that happened in the Middle East at the time were unjustifiable atrocities. But, that doesn’t mean we should ignore the cause.
Zionists does not equal Jews. There are plenty of Jews who aren’t Zionists and lots of Zionists who aren’t Jewish.
Yeah, nah. Their neighbors declared war on Israel the literal moment Israel was founded. They hadn’t even had time to piss anyone off.
Because the very creation of Israel was a settler colonialist state ethnically cleansing the local population.
I would say their neighbours had plenty to be pissed off about.
How? By this logic creating a state is the worst action a group of people can do.
When you do that on someone else’s land?
We call that colonialism and the people who’s land it was generally aren’t too thrilled
Yes? Especially if the territory of that state is forcibly taken away from others who are living on it
Creating the United States was similarly terrible as it involved the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Native Americans. Same with Australia. Same with South Africa. Same with Rhodesia.
Forcibly taking someone’s home and cleansing an area of an ethnicity is certainly regarded as one of the worst actions a group of people can do. And rightly so
Of course, the way Israel was created was not ideal. I do not agree that Israel should have forced people out.
Just like many Arab countries should not have forced Jews out.
But unfortunately, it’s not very feasible to return it to the previous state now…
A lot of countries have a right of return. It works just fine. They may not be able to get the family farm back, but we can’t win everything.
Uh… Zionists had 28 years before the founding of Israel to get everyone to hate Jews all they want. Remember that the militias that formed the IDF were terrorist organizations before that, and the whole “let’s create an Apartheid state in Palestine” thing was inherently pretty objectionable.
Nah uh! Recorded History starts in 1947!
Zionism itself is not that bad. I believe that after many years of oppression Jews deserve to have their own state.
However, radical Zionism (such as Kahanism) is a plague.
Ethnostates are inherently bad. You cannot have a state for a single ethnicity or religion and not have it descend into apartheid or worse. Zionism is inherently bad.
Of course, it would be ideal if there was no minority oppression whatsoever. However, once you see things such as holocaust, we must assure that the actions won’t happen again. How else would you want to garant it in a better way than creating a state?
You would feel differently if you and your family were forcibly evicted from your land and told it belonged to others now.
Especially if you and your family had absolutely no connection to an event like the Holocaust. Which is the situation that the Palestinians experienced - last I checked it was Germans, not Arabs, who committed the Holocaust. And yet, somehow, no German land was converted into a new state.
Um, kind of, Prussia and Silesia have been converted from German land to Polish land, just so that Poland could move all their people from east Poland to west Poland and give east Polish lands to the USSR (and now Ukraine).
So the Germans lost that land, but the Jews didn’t get it. The English instead gave them their Palestine.
Dude, that was Russia doing that. Russia controlled that entire region until 1990.
I wrote USSR, what do you mean?
Arab authorities supported Hitler in general.
But I partially agree with you. Israel should have been established but at the same time lives of people there should have been unchanged.
Just like no Jews should have been expelled from Arab countries.
Unfortunately, they started a war and it ended badly for both sides.
My friend, more groups were killed than just Jewish peoples in the Holocaust. Are you advocating for a state for Roma people also? Where should we get that state to give to them? There is and has been no such thing as “open” land for centuries, since the completion of the partitioning of the world between imperialist states in the previous centuries. So, by advocating for state creation, you are inherently advocating for dispossession and expulsion of those who live in that area.
What about the indigenous Americans whom have suffered the worst known genocide in human history, should we pick a place in Europe and give them a country there by kicking out the historic residents of that region? Why is granting a people statehood your only perceived method of preventing violence?
How and where can you set up this mythical state without inherently requiring the kinds of oppressions and violence we see in Israel?
I’m pagan, give me a fucking state, too. I demand Britain since Stonehenge is located there.
I demand a gay state only for LGBT+ people, especially because after the war we were left in the camps still.
Shit we also need a state just for the leftists who were locked up.
And a 3rd for the queer leftists.
And the furries have had it too hard for too long. Where is their state?
Nah Furries didn’t even exist like 20 years ago. It’s just some internet neckbeards.
The belief that any group of people are entitled to live anywhere because of their religion (religious nationalism) is bad.
I agree, however, once a certain group is oppressed for decades, a state where they can continue living seems very logical
Sure, but I don’t think they should get to pick and choose where they get to be.
Zionists disagree, and this is the result of appeasing them.
So what should we do? Ask them where they want to belong, remove that place from list and vote again?
No, I didn’t suggest that and don’t pretend that I did.
How about a compromise? There is plenty of room in the US for them.
Ah yes, the United States; famously a leading example of tolerance and acceptance for everyone. /s
? Look at how we accommodate Mormons.
Israel doesn’t give a shit. They were only interested in normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia to keep them away and deal with them later. Now that they’ve ripped their masks off and kicked the ethnic cleansing process into high gear, there’s no point in normalizing relations. If Saudi Arabia has a problem with it, they’ll be “regime changed”. We’ve hit a point of no return.
If the west was going to regime change Saudi Arabia they would have done it after 9/11, which was planned financed and perpetrated by Saudis. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq instead, two enemies of Saudi Arabia that had nothing to do with it. Israeli and Saudi dick are equally down America’s throat and I honestly don’t know which one NATO would side with.
Saudi Arabia is a well-tamed bitch. There was no need to go after Saudi Arabia after 9/11 because they were already fully under control. Nah, a tragedy like that is best capitalized by taking down “rogue” enemy states like Iraq. Just look at the countries that the US has involved itself in, including Syria, Libya, Somalia, etc… these are countries that weren’t playing ball. It’s looking like Iran’s turn is soon. After all these countries have been fully taken care of, the US can take down the tamed bitches like Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Basic divide and conquer, oldest trick in the book.
I don’t think Iran will happen. For multitudes of reasons. They are not an easy target like the rest you have listed.
Best they can try is destabilize like always. Just toppling their theocratic regime would be a good outcome already. For that the general populace would have to live in squalor though. But they somehow keep things afloat.
To change the saudi “regime” you have to change the society itself because it is a tribal society. It will take at least one or two more generation to create any fundamental change in the kingdom.
Nah, the US just backs one of the many “princes” to usurp the throne. Failing that, they do a full-on invasion.
They can’t even do that. They might bomb cities but they cannot do a full invasion. The land is Massive with mountains, large desert and extreme heat. And if they touch Mecca or Madinah you mobilize 1 billion Muslims around the world.
Mountains, desert, and extreme heat haven’t stopped the US from invading in the past. They’d be focusing on key areas.
Impossible for a non-Islamic state to invade Saudi Arabia. There would be a profound religious war. The crown’s whole legitimacy comes from them protecting Mecca.
They derive all their power from their oil supply and their close ties to the US (which they get because of their oil supply).
Not at all. Most Muslims don’t care about Saudi rulers and see them as massive Hypocrites collaborating with israel.
Unless their politicians hide inside Mecca it’s not likely anyone will undertake action.
What the fuck rambling simple minded bullshit is this?
If you think two sentences is rambling then maybe you’re the simple-minded one. Sorry you have trouble understanding, but let the adults talk.
Actually the adults voted on these comments. 😿
Yes, I’m sure you and your three alt accounts are super adults for caring about upvotes and downvotes. Here, have a downvote.
Lol I’ve never created an alt for voting in my life. How old are you? An ignorant baby? Or a stubborn geriatric?
Yeah but fuck the Saudis.
Yeah, it’s terrible that they’re the ones on the right side of history on this. It shows how low the US is willing to go to protect its ME interests. Literally morally lower than Saudi.
Ya, Them, Iran, North Korea.
Nice to see them all together on the same right side.
It’s kinda unusual for Saudi Arabia to stick up for Palestinians, isn’t it? Am I wrong about that?
ETA: After a little reading, it seems that I am wrong about that but “it’s complicated.”
SA has been working on a two-state solution for a while now, that was what Kushner was supposed to be working on during the Trump administration when he wound up getting a loan of $5 billion from the Saudis, however Qatar is the country where HAMAS leadership are hiding out.
Yeah, just today I remembered that Kushner has already “solved” this problem when I read an interview about the future of this conflict depending on the future US president. The interviewee said Trump hates Netanyahu because he congratulated Biden when he won the 2020 election, so the US would probably not pressure Israel to resolve the conflict, but also not help Israel out.
Trump famously hated Netanyahu before 2020 also. He even said the quiet part out loud, that Netanyahu has no intention to resolve the situation whatsoever. He just also really loves Israel, so it’s kinda irrelevant.
Always painful when we need to say it, but Trump wasn’t wrong on this one, that guy definitely knows autocrats very well. Netanyahu should have been ousted long ago, he’s been a thorn in the side of the peace process for as long as he’s had power and will continue to be.
Good.
Who cares? Saudis are a fundamentalist theocracy built on oil money
Anyone who wants peace in the Near East as there’s no way around the Saudis and their influence. They’re a diplomatic heavyweight in general: Within the Arab world by tribal whatnot, elsewhere mostly fuelled by oil.
Israel has been there for decades without being at war with Palestine and there was no peace.
I don’t know what they have been doing with their influence to this point then.
Israel has been there for decades without being at war with Palestine
Israel is founded on the Nakba. There hasn’t been a single day of peace since religious Zionists appeared in the region (the whole thing would’ve been possible with only Labour Zionists) which is no surprise as religious Zionists are fascists and fascists love their purified ethno-states and eternal wars.
My solution? One-state. Let all the Palestinians into Israel, with full citizenship, all of them (see right of return), tear down the walls in the west bank, deport Hamas and Kahanites into Gaza where they can fight it out to their heart’s content without bothering anyone else. Quadruple the height of the wall. They’re all criminals an open-air prison is adequate. Also put corrupt politicians there, especially corrupt prime ministers.
Glass em tbh
The Saudis are never on the right side of anything. They do not give a shit about Palestinians and they never did - this just how they attempt to be a thorn in the side of the US.
Ngl, quite a clever move from SA. If I had been in their position, I would have suggested the same
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Entity does smart thing
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“Omg, they’re just like me!”
The entity is not Ryan Gosling from Drive so it is not like me.
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Israel has an excellent opportunity to make peace and be the economic engine of growth for the region. But the mullahs in Iran, Hamas, and present day Likud are all made for each other
Yup. Israel desperately needs to hold new elections. If necessary, Gantz should threaten to collapse the coalition government if that’s what it takes. Israel needs sensible leaders like Benny Gantz, Gadi Eisenkot, Yair Lapid, and Gallant who actually understand that while it’s necessary to exterminate Hamas, the only way of ensuring long-term peace and stability in the region is to reach a political solution with a pathway towards Palestinian self-rule.
My understanding is that there are some interesting demographic effects at play in Israel - their percentage of heavily religious population has been increasing and is therefore getting more and more political control.
The ultra-orthadox (I think this is the term) Jews are also exempt from military service I believe.
This is/could lead to increased internal instability in the coming years/decades.
You are correct. Ultra-orthodox don’t have to go to military, don’t have to work, etc.
So they are completely useless for the state in terms of secular point of view.
The CIA should reverse these trends and push liberal internationalism. Which is supposed to be their speciality by now
We can’t have a nuclear armed state run by religious zealots in the middle east. Especially one that we are seemingly rapidly losing control over
I worked with Lapid’s son. Chilliest most down to earth motherfucker. Having said that, I don’t know shit about the progressive players. But my colleagues, under the age of 60, mostly from IDF intelligence, all supported multi state, anti settlements, and didn’t know how tf anyone was going to find a path fwd.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The dispute over Gaza’s future — as the war rages with no end in sight — pits Israel against its top ally, the United States, as well as much of the international community, and poses a major obstacle to any plans for postwar governance or reconstruction of the impoverished coastal enclave that is home to 2.3 million Palestinians.
In the interview with “CNN’s Fareed Zakaria GPS,” the host asked: “Are you saying unequivocally that if there is not a credible and irreversible path to a Palestinian state, there will not be normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel?”
Earlier in the interview, when asked if oil-rich Saudi Arabia would finance reconstruction in Gaza — where Israel’s offensive has caused unprecedented destruction — Prince Faisal gave a similar answer.
At a meeting about the war on Monday, European Union foreign ministers said the creation of a Palestinian state was the only way to achieve peace and expressed concern about Netanyahu’s rejection of the idea.
Relatives of the hostages, as well as other protesters, have set up a tent camp outside Netanyahu’s residence in Jerusalem and vowed to remain until a deal is reached to bring the rest of the captives home.
But Netanyahu’s governing coalition is beholden to far-right parties that want to step up the offensive, encourage the “voluntary” emigration of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Gaza, and re-establish Jewish settlements there.
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