I appreciate your response, and will respond fully later. Edit before I post: turns out later is immediately when I started typing. (Again, very much appreciate your engagement)
But just quickly wanted to get in that I very much dislike cars, just a convenient example because of cars being notoriously long to get in the Soviet union.
Which I recognise was not a anarchist project.
I want to preface this, this is all with the assumption that any system has successfully met all the fundamental basic needs of health, shelter and food, and is no longer capitalist.
Your proposed system isn’t even anarchy to me though, a federalised system? Smells a lot like a an archy to me. Freely associated groups, who set rules amongst themselves? Doesn’t sound very anarchist at all, sounds quick democratic if you ask me, though that might be my bias talking.
Sure, Europeans states are free to do what they want, with certain restrictions they agree to by being part of the EU. This reeeeealy doesn’t scream anarchy to me (replacing states for freely associated smaller groups). Plus, I don’t really think being able to up and leave it a great way to run a overall society anyway, as sometimes disagreements will not be settled by the groups in question, and the rest of the larger federated group will need to enforce the consensus. Is this anarchy? Really feels like some kind of democracy to me.
(I invite you to correct misconceptions, in your view, as I am cognisant I may be straw-manning you here due to misunderstanding. I have no yet read the long FAQ you linked)
No group would “raid” other groups because they have friends in all those groups.
I would suggest groups wouldn’t necessarily need to stay in one place, of course no one wants to hurt friends. Go a couple hundred kms down the road, steal some shit. Yes, most people won’t, I wouldn’t. Even fewer people would if hypothetically their needs have been met. But there will be people who will. How will we deal with this?
Let’s say I accept federated groups are “anarchist”, which I don’t, what is to stop other federated groups coming to raid your federated groups stuff. (Yes this is tribalism, but let’s be real here, if your system relies on everyone letting go of tribalism, and being educated you’re never going to achieve it, there will be dumb people, there will be some subset of tribally minded people, or people who have different aims that the majority. A hypothetical: you’re from a federated group from an area with fewer natural resources (more on how I think a moneyless ordering system would not work, and would fail to adequately distribute finite resources later), you’re having a laugh if you there’s no chance they would organise an army to get more resources.
If they do, is your group gonna organise an army in time? Else, you already have standing army? How are you going to play your part as the federated group, by sending someone from your collective? What if your collective has no one willing to be a soldier, hmmm wouldn’t it be great if we had some way to compensate people for their time so that you can specialise in a large federated group of people. If you have a standing, paid army, and all the other groups are keeping all the other groups to their word and pulling their weight, this does not feel like anarchy to me. That’s a federated democratic state.
On ordering things. I’m not capitalist, it’s a stupid system, but supply and demand aren’t made up things we can leave behind in a post capitalist world. There will be stuff that is more desirable and people will want it more. How exactly do anarchists propose allocating these things fairly. First in best dressed? That will mean long waits for some things, and none for others. This is silly because people have different wants, and value things differently.
Money is great. It’s just accounting, and allows for greater personal choice (in a hypothetical post-capitalist world where amassing wealth is made impossible).
I have $x, I’m gonna spend most it on dance classes, because I really like that, and barely any on clothes, because I’m not a fashionista. Others might spend more on nicer food, but hate dancing.
Some options with moneyless ordering the things you need, without money
Everyone orders more of something than there is to go around, lots of waiting for high demand stuff :/
You limit how much someone can order in total value (this is money, in my view)
Each group decides what they feel like making for others (this sounds like social debt, to me, which ultimately is money without the accounting, it’s money by feeling rather than numbers). Sucks, because what if I want something from some random group across the world. Boy, wouldn’t it be great if we had some medium of exchange people would accept in place of debt :O
Money also seems necessary, because while there are many jobs (including mine, I’d do mine) which are fine to do, I think there are some jobs who should get paid more. Working unsocialable hours at a bar? I think you ought to get paid more for that. Air traffic control at 3 AM. Yep more money. Working in sewer work? Yeah, I think you should get paid more.
How, exactly, are you gonna deal with that without money? Just hope people are willing to do the necessary jobs? Let people work however much they want, okay, now we have a worker shortage in XYZ undesirable area. Nah, pay them more, enough so there are enough people to do the job. Sounds like your federated group needs to get together and decide how to fairly pay these people hmmmm. Gonna need to enforce that, smells a lot like regulation :O
Small freely associating groups are no longer possible we have cities of millions. And people will disagree, absolutely no doubt about that. Are you suggesting breaking those up into smaller groups to be managed entirely separately? Sounds like a nightmare at city scale. And if you hand wave it away to say, oh we can set up larger structures to freely associate city wide rules, well, again this doesn’t exactly smell like anarchy to me, unless any part of the city can just go, nah, we don’t want to associate with you, we want our lovely park to ourselves now, if you’re then enforcing them to do something when they don’t want to (not blocking off their neighbourhood), it doesn’t really feel like anarchism, (to me) it feels like democracy.
If you’re suggesting keeping groups of millions, are you seriously suggesting not having a police force? Not having courts? Like, I’m not in the US, and I get how bad cops are there (and somewhat generally elsewhere), but what, you think crimes are only committed by people in poverty (which is a large part, sure).
Generally, most people are good, would have little to no reason to commit violent crimes in a socialist/communist world, but, there will be some level of violent crime, for which you would need some system to deal with fairly. And you will need to enforce it on those who don’t agree. Else what, dude across the city negligently caused my friends death, but doesn’t think it’s his fault, and his group also doesn’t think so.
What are we going to do, politely agree to disagree? Or, is it then gonna have to be taken to some justice system all the groups agreed to. What if the group really decides not to play ball, and they control vital infrastructure? Threaten to leave the federation if they don’t get their way?
Hate to tell you, family is a kind of tribe, and you cannot be claiming people won’t be tribal in the future.
I would say, it’s something to be managed and controlled for, and I don’t think anarchy would do it.
This was a ramble, I will get around to reading the FAQ haha, hope you enjoy rebutting my not very well laid out arguments!
Glad to see I’m not the only one having rambling problems. Hope you’re ready for a swim (of an alphabetic variety).
But just quickly wanted to get in that I very much dislike cars, just a convenient example because of cars being notoriously long to get in the Soviet union.
the soviet union is the primary reason why I shy away from communism
(technically state capitalism but that doesn’t matter).
any system has successfully met all the fundamental basic needs of health, shelter and food, and is no longer capitalist.
I’m using the word capitalist the classical (marx) sense of private ownership of the
means of production. Companies are capitalist and coops are socialist.
one is privately owned, the other collectively.
<sidenote>
Yes. Soviet Union was capitalist. state ownership isn’t socialism,
only collective ownership is, and just calling them collectives is not
collective ownership.
</sidenote>
Freely associated groups, who set rules amongst themselves? Doesn’t sound very anarchist at all, sounds quick democratic
Why? If there are no hierarchical structures, Eg the rules are made collectively,
why would it not be anarchism? On the democratic part I would say that without
majority rule, which is still rule and thus would be opposed by anarchists, it
shouldn’t be called democracy as the original meaning of the word is “people rule”.
Sure, Europeans states are free to do what they want, with certain restrictions they agree to by being part of the EU.
States are fundamentally archic structures, and the EU is even more archic. They
are all managed top-down. You have someone at the top of the pyramid who says
what will be done. That’s archy. That’s vertical organisation.
Anarchy is managed differently, through horizontal organisation. Instead of
choosing people who will have power over you, you use your own social potential
to build collective power to resist the archic power. I view anarchy as a fluid
machine. Like a water bubble in 0g. The parts of the machine (people) can move
around and bounce off of each-other which changes the shape of the machine. Every
cog shapes the machine to fit them. Archy is a machine made of steel someone
comes along, sets up the shape, and if a gear doesn’t fit they get ground to
dust. Anarchy is chaotic organisation. It doesn’t do in-groups and out-groups,
instead seeing the world as a single group, and empowering everyone in that
group to find their place. In such conditions any harmful activity is
completely pointless.
Bad people will always exist. But archy rewards bad behaviour by allowing them
to get to the top. Anarchy is nothing more than saying “people are imperfect,
so no-one should have the right to rule, as every ruler will make mistakes”.
On the topic of defence. There is no need to have centralized defence.
decentralized defence forces can work wonders. If someone comes and attacks
your group the entire group will defend itself. Why should it fall on anyone
specific. There are many ways to defend and an anarchist group would encourage
everyone to defend the group in their own way.
supply and demand aren’t made up things we can leave behind in a post capitalist world.
Money is great. It’s just accounting, and allows for greater personal choice
Money is one of the foundations of archy. as soon as you have a concrete number
that is associated with a single person those people have power and authority
over those with a smaller number. You can’t have a fair society with money.
And if everyone’s basic needs are met then why do you even need it. how can you
have an economy if people can just opt out of it.
Small freely associating groups are no longer possible we have cities of millions.
Why? Computers have allowed people to stay connected to hundreds of people. And
even though it’s currently used to incentivise consumerist isolationism, it
doesn’t have to be. Why do you think that millions of groups of millions of
people can’t work without some centralized oversight? I would say they would
work better because they won’t have the bottlenecks of centralisation.
Why can’t every apartment block be a commune? Why can’t the chef that lives next
door make the meals for all of you? Why can’t the cleaner clean all of your
appartments? Why can’t that truck driver bring the chef fresh produce from the
farmer he’s known for 20 years so all of you can eat and be merry? Why can’t
that work in a city of millions? If an apartment block doesn’t have a chef
someone who wants to go to the nearby school and learn. Why does society need
to be made up of people who don’t know each-other, doing everything they can to
screw over everyone else because that’s how you get ahead in life? AND WHY
SHOULD WE LIVE IN A SYSTEM THAT ENCOURAGES IT? That’s all archy is. Means for
awful people to screw over others. If not everyone is good then no-one is
capable of rule.
are you seriously suggesting not having a police force? Not having courts?
ABSOLUTELY! ACAB! (Originally an anarchist slogan until it’s mainstream adoption during BLM)
The police are professional bullies, no matter what shape they take. If the
responsibility of the enforcement of rules falls on a single group, that group
makes the rules. Law enforcement should be the duty of everyone. you see
something doing something you think is wrong, go up to them and tell them to
stop. If other people are around ask them what they think is going on. no-one
else is responsible for your safety but yourself, by keeping others safe.
Tit-for-tat. By protecting those around you, you’re creating a culture of
mutual protection so when you’re in trouble that culture will help you.
The courts and police were not meant to protect people. They were made to protect
property and the ruling class. The only reason they protect people is because
the people that threaten the ruling class often threaten normal people as well.
(Also the facade of justice gives them plenty of bootlickers)
For every person that got justice out of the courts there is another that got
screwed over. For every woman that sent their abuser to jail there is another
whose life was screwed owner by false allegations.
Justice does not come from books and laws. but from the reactions of people.
in a communal justice system the shame of being outed is far more motivating
for not committing crimes than fear of jail. Just look at how effective christian
rule was during the medieval ages.
Anarchy is about creating a culture that opposes archy.
A culture that makes the security of all the people the responsibility of all the people.
A culture that ensures everyone has a place in society that they have chosen, not been pushed into.
A culture that doesn’t assume anyone needs to be governed.
To me anarchy is the society of kindness. Where the power consolidates among
those that gain the most respect. Respect that, if abused, will be taken away.
Anarchy is society in it’s most complicatedly simple, chaotically ordered, and
collectively individual. It’s my reason to live. So I hope you can see why
these ideas matter to me.
I really appreciate this thread and I feel inspired to reply. I think a lot of why anarchism is difficult to understand is because it is hard for us to imagine anything other than the “capitalist realism” that has spread to the entire world. As they say, it is the air you breathe, the water you swim in, so it can be hard to see.
So if you want to understand how anarchism can possibly work, really what you have to do is look at places where it is, in fact, actually working. Find the edges of society where affinity groups are actually doing real work in supporting the unhoused, defending marginalized and vulnerable communities, feeding and empowering one-another without any hierarchy. Look closely at the actions of Block Cop City for instance, or the Zapatistas, or Rojava. Look at how things worked in the Spanish Civil War, or Occupy Wall Street. As an added exercise, find some other examples of non-hierarchical activities and actions in your own life (you may be surprised how many there are).
Lots of hierarchy-apologists will decry these things always fail, or are only applicable in very specific contexts, but judge for yourself. There are obviously autonomous tactics that clearly work within these examples, but can you imagine them working in other contexts? How are they organizing themselves if it isn’t by way of hierarchy? How are they getting things accomplished without rules and punishments? Keep an open mind, use your imagination, and you may just find yourself thinking that anarchy is indeed possible beyond these given examples.
I appreciate your response, and will respond fully later. Edit before I post: turns out later is immediately when I started typing. (Again, very much appreciate your engagement)
But just quickly wanted to get in that I very much dislike cars, just a convenient example because of cars being notoriously long to get in the Soviet union.
Which I recognise was not a anarchist project.
I want to preface this, this is all with the assumption that any system has successfully met all the fundamental basic needs of health, shelter and food, and is no longer capitalist.
Your proposed system isn’t even anarchy to me though, a federalised system? Smells a lot like a an archy to me. Freely associated groups, who set rules amongst themselves? Doesn’t sound very anarchist at all, sounds quick democratic if you ask me, though that might be my bias talking.
Sure, Europeans states are free to do what they want, with certain restrictions they agree to by being part of the EU. This reeeeealy doesn’t scream anarchy to me (replacing states for freely associated smaller groups). Plus, I don’t really think being able to up and leave it a great way to run a overall society anyway, as sometimes disagreements will not be settled by the groups in question, and the rest of the larger federated group will need to enforce the consensus. Is this anarchy? Really feels like some kind of democracy to me.
(I invite you to correct misconceptions, in your view, as I am cognisant I may be straw-manning you here due to misunderstanding. I have no yet read the long FAQ you linked)
I would suggest groups wouldn’t necessarily need to stay in one place, of course no one wants to hurt friends. Go a couple hundred kms down the road, steal some shit. Yes, most people won’t, I wouldn’t. Even fewer people would if hypothetically their needs have been met. But there will be people who will. How will we deal with this?
Let’s say I accept federated groups are “anarchist”, which I don’t, what is to stop other federated groups coming to raid your federated groups stuff. (Yes this is tribalism, but let’s be real here, if your system relies on everyone letting go of tribalism, and being educated you’re never going to achieve it, there will be dumb people, there will be some subset of tribally minded people, or people who have different aims that the majority. A hypothetical: you’re from a federated group from an area with fewer natural resources (more on how I think a moneyless ordering system would not work, and would fail to adequately distribute finite resources later), you’re having a laugh if you there’s no chance they would organise an army to get more resources.
If they do, is your group gonna organise an army in time? Else, you already have standing army? How are you going to play your part as the federated group, by sending someone from your collective? What if your collective has no one willing to be a soldier, hmmm wouldn’t it be great if we had some way to compensate people for their time so that you can specialise in a large federated group of people. If you have a standing, paid army, and all the other groups are keeping all the other groups to their word and pulling their weight, this does not feel like anarchy to me. That’s a federated democratic state.
On ordering things. I’m not capitalist, it’s a stupid system, but supply and demand aren’t made up things we can leave behind in a post capitalist world. There will be stuff that is more desirable and people will want it more. How exactly do anarchists propose allocating these things fairly. First in best dressed? That will mean long waits for some things, and none for others. This is silly because people have different wants, and value things differently.
Money is great. It’s just accounting, and allows for greater personal choice (in a hypothetical post-capitalist world where amassing wealth is made impossible).
I have $x, I’m gonna spend most it on dance classes, because I really like that, and barely any on clothes, because I’m not a fashionista. Others might spend more on nicer food, but hate dancing.
Some options with moneyless ordering the things you need, without money
Money also seems necessary, because while there are many jobs (including mine, I’d do mine) which are fine to do, I think there are some jobs who should get paid more. Working unsocialable hours at a bar? I think you ought to get paid more for that. Air traffic control at 3 AM. Yep more money. Working in sewer work? Yeah, I think you should get paid more.
How, exactly, are you gonna deal with that without money? Just hope people are willing to do the necessary jobs? Let people work however much they want, okay, now we have a worker shortage in XYZ undesirable area. Nah, pay them more, enough so there are enough people to do the job. Sounds like your federated group needs to get together and decide how to fairly pay these people hmmmm. Gonna need to enforce that, smells a lot like regulation :O
Small freely associating groups are no longer possible we have cities of millions. And people will disagree, absolutely no doubt about that. Are you suggesting breaking those up into smaller groups to be managed entirely separately? Sounds like a nightmare at city scale. And if you hand wave it away to say, oh we can set up larger structures to freely associate city wide rules, well, again this doesn’t exactly smell like anarchy to me, unless any part of the city can just go, nah, we don’t want to associate with you, we want our lovely park to ourselves now, if you’re then enforcing them to do something when they don’t want to (not blocking off their neighbourhood), it doesn’t really feel like anarchism, (to me) it feels like democracy.
If you’re suggesting keeping groups of millions, are you seriously suggesting not having a police force? Not having courts? Like, I’m not in the US, and I get how bad cops are there (and somewhat generally elsewhere), but what, you think crimes are only committed by people in poverty (which is a large part, sure).
Generally, most people are good, would have little to no reason to commit violent crimes in a socialist/communist world, but, there will be some level of violent crime, for which you would need some system to deal with fairly. And you will need to enforce it on those who don’t agree. Else what, dude across the city negligently caused my friends death, but doesn’t think it’s his fault, and his group also doesn’t think so. What are we going to do, politely agree to disagree? Or, is it then gonna have to be taken to some justice system all the groups agreed to. What if the group really decides not to play ball, and they control vital infrastructure? Threaten to leave the federation if they don’t get their way?
Hate to tell you, family is a kind of tribe, and you cannot be claiming people won’t be tribal in the future.
I would say, it’s something to be managed and controlled for, and I don’t think anarchy would do it.
This was a ramble, I will get around to reading the FAQ haha, hope you enjoy rebutting my not very well laid out arguments!
Glad to see I’m not the only one having rambling problems. Hope you’re ready for a swim (of an alphabetic variety).
the soviet union is the primary reason why I shy away from communism (technically state capitalism but that doesn’t matter).
I’m using the word capitalist the classical (marx) sense of private ownership of the means of production. Companies are capitalist and coops are socialist. one is privately owned, the other collectively.
<sidenote> Yes. Soviet Union was capitalist. state ownership isn’t socialism, only collective ownership is, and just calling them collectives is not collective ownership. </sidenote>
Why? If there are no hierarchical structures, Eg the rules are made collectively, why would it not be anarchism? On the democratic part I would say that without majority rule, which is still rule and thus would be opposed by anarchists, it shouldn’t be called democracy as the original meaning of the word is “people rule”.
States are fundamentally archic structures, and the EU is even more archic. They are all managed top-down. You have someone at the top of the pyramid who says what will be done. That’s archy. That’s vertical organisation.
Anarchy is managed differently, through horizontal organisation. Instead of choosing people who will have power over you, you use your own social potential to build collective power to resist the archic power. I view anarchy as a fluid machine. Like a water bubble in 0g. The parts of the machine (people) can move around and bounce off of each-other which changes the shape of the machine. Every cog shapes the machine to fit them. Archy is a machine made of steel someone comes along, sets up the shape, and if a gear doesn’t fit they get ground to dust. Anarchy is chaotic organisation. It doesn’t do in-groups and out-groups, instead seeing the world as a single group, and empowering everyone in that group to find their place. In such conditions any harmful activity is completely pointless.
Bad people will always exist. But archy rewards bad behaviour by allowing them to get to the top. Anarchy is nothing more than saying “people are imperfect, so no-one should have the right to rule, as every ruler will make mistakes”.
On the topic of defence. There is no need to have centralized defence. decentralized defence forces can work wonders. If someone comes and attacks your group the entire group will defend itself. Why should it fall on anyone specific. There are many ways to defend and an anarchist group would encourage everyone to defend the group in their own way.
Maybe supply and demand aren’t, but economics are: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionC.html#secc12. (If you didn’t notice the AFAQ has different sections, The complete A4 PDF is 3077 pages)
Money is one of the foundations of archy. as soon as you have a concrete number that is associated with a single person those people have power and authority over those with a smaller number. You can’t have a fair society with money. And if everyone’s basic needs are met then why do you even need it. how can you have an economy if people can just opt out of it.
Why? Computers have allowed people to stay connected to hundreds of people. And even though it’s currently used to incentivise consumerist isolationism, it doesn’t have to be. Why do you think that millions of groups of millions of people can’t work without some centralized oversight? I would say they would work better because they won’t have the bottlenecks of centralisation. Why can’t every apartment block be a commune? Why can’t the chef that lives next door make the meals for all of you? Why can’t the cleaner clean all of your appartments? Why can’t that truck driver bring the chef fresh produce from the farmer he’s known for 20 years so all of you can eat and be merry? Why can’t that work in a city of millions? If an apartment block doesn’t have a chef someone who wants to go to the nearby school and learn. Why does society need to be made up of people who don’t know each-other, doing everything they can to screw over everyone else because that’s how you get ahead in life? AND WHY SHOULD WE LIVE IN A SYSTEM THAT ENCOURAGES IT? That’s all archy is. Means for awful people to screw over others. If not everyone is good then no-one is capable of rule.
ABSOLUTELY! ACAB! (Originally an anarchist slogan until it’s mainstream adoption during BLM) The police are professional bullies, no matter what shape they take. If the responsibility of the enforcement of rules falls on a single group, that group makes the rules. Law enforcement should be the duty of everyone. you see something doing something you think is wrong, go up to them and tell them to stop. If other people are around ask them what they think is going on. no-one else is responsible for your safety but yourself, by keeping others safe. Tit-for-tat. By protecting those around you, you’re creating a culture of mutual protection so when you’re in trouble that culture will help you. The courts and police were not meant to protect people. They were made to protect property and the ruling class. The only reason they protect people is because the people that threaten the ruling class often threaten normal people as well. (Also the facade of justice gives them plenty of bootlickers) For every person that got justice out of the courts there is another that got screwed over. For every woman that sent their abuser to jail there is another whose life was screwed owner by false allegations.
Justice does not come from books and laws. but from the reactions of people. in a communal justice system the shame of being outed is far more motivating for not committing crimes than fear of jail. Just look at how effective christian rule was during the medieval ages.
Anarchy is about creating a culture that opposes archy. A culture that makes the security of all the people the responsibility of all the people. A culture that ensures everyone has a place in society that they have chosen, not been pushed into. A culture that doesn’t assume anyone needs to be governed.
To me anarchy is the society of kindness. Where the power consolidates among those that gain the most respect. Respect that, if abused, will be taken away.
Anarchy is society in it’s most complicatedly simple, chaotically ordered, and collectively individual. It’s my reason to live. So I hope you can see why these ideas matter to me.
I really appreciate this thread and I feel inspired to reply. I think a lot of why anarchism is difficult to understand is because it is hard for us to imagine anything other than the “capitalist realism” that has spread to the entire world. As they say, it is the air you breathe, the water you swim in, so it can be hard to see.
So if you want to understand how anarchism can possibly work, really what you have to do is look at places where it is, in fact, actually working. Find the edges of society where affinity groups are actually doing real work in supporting the unhoused, defending marginalized and vulnerable communities, feeding and empowering one-another without any hierarchy. Look closely at the actions of Block Cop City for instance, or the Zapatistas, or Rojava. Look at how things worked in the Spanish Civil War, or Occupy Wall Street. As an added exercise, find some other examples of non-hierarchical activities and actions in your own life (you may be surprised how many there are).
Lots of hierarchy-apologists will decry these things always fail, or are only applicable in very specific contexts, but judge for yourself. There are obviously autonomous tactics that clearly work within these examples, but can you imagine them working in other contexts? How are they organizing themselves if it isn’t by way of hierarchy? How are they getting things accomplished without rules and punishments? Keep an open mind, use your imagination, and you may just find yourself thinking that anarchy is indeed possible beyond these given examples.