Hey all, I’m British so I don’t really know the ins and outs of the US healthcare system. Apologies for asking what is probably a rather simple question.
So like most of you, I see many posts and gofundmes about people having astronomically high medical bills. Most recently, someone having a $27k bill even after his death.
However, I have an American friend who is quick to point out that apparently nobody actually pays those bills. They’re just some elaborate dance between insurance companies and hospitals. If you don’t have insurance, the cost is lower or removed entirely. Supposedly.
So I’m just asking… How accurate is that? Consider someone without insurance, a minor physical ailment, a neurodivergent mind and no interest in fighting off harassing people for the rest of their life.
How much would such a person expect to pay, out of their own pocket, for things like check ups, x rays, meds, counselling and so on?
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I read something from last year that said about half a million Americans go into bankruptcy due to medical debt each year.
That’s it, that’s what happens. You lose everything and you start over, if you’re healthy enough.
Protect your NHS.
about half a million Americans go into bankruptcy due to medical debt each year.
That’s a huuuge shame for a country that calls itself civilized and developed etc.
Nobody sane who lives there calls it that
Because otherwise they do …what…to him? :)
But yes, I have heard some people from there who understood it right.
The real truth of what happens is substantially more complicated due to America being made of 50 states. The medical debt numbers are highly debatable (Related Snopes) and do not account for Regional differences. In some states such as New York there are catchalls/emergency funding so that usually anyone making below low six figures can get their bills paid. Other states make collections difficult such as New Jersey not allowing reporting to credit agencies, making ignoring a debt kind of a non-issue. Then there are states such as Florida that require the barest of insurance to keep rates low and provide no patient protections, so when an accident does occur out of pocket costs can be huge as your insurance covers nothing. In all these events the Hospital assumes that big pocket insurance is paying first so they break out the expensive menu, when they realize they can’t get blood from a stone they are grateful if you cover their wholesale price.
Funny you should mention New York actually, that’s where my friend lives so I guess it explains why he thinks it’s not that bad.
Thanks for the reality check. It’s definitely a horrendous situation to have a for-profit medical sector, whatever the exact figures are.
Luckily there doesn’t seem to be any large desire in the general population to move away from the NHS. Even the most conservative people I know support it (and I live in a pretty conservative area).
Some of our political parties however seem to pretend like they support it while quietly trying to undermine it. Let’s see what Labour do in the coming years.
Undermining it is how conservative parties will get rid of it. Keep decreasing funding. Do more with less. Quality drops. Wealthier people start moving to health insurance. Jobs start offering health insurance. Funding decreases further. People start to wonder why it’s even needed.
Have those people actually lost everything or is it just some scheme to pay less?
Bankruptcy is an expensive and not-fun process. Basically, similar to what happens on death all creditors are carefully listed out and prioritized, assets beyond the bare minimum to live are liquidated to pay creditors what they can and of course the bankruptcy lawyers fees don’t help with the mountains of debt and costs. Certain debts cannot be discharged through bankruptcy so basically you trash your finances, mental health and credit for a shot at maybe being able to fix your finances with less debt payments
https://apnews.com/article/medical-debt-legislation-2a4f2fab7e2c58a68ac4541b8309c7aa
I’ll let you figure it out.
Some people kill themselves (either actively or by refusing treatment) so that their families won’t be in debt and will have a place to live, that’s how lost everything it can get.
I’ll put it this way:
At least 68,000 Americans die every single year due to not being able to afford healthcare.
We pay an extra $450 BILLION annually to enrich unnecessary middlemen and ALL of our politicians are being bribed (or primaried) to prevent Single Payer. You’ll hear people like Kamala and Warren talk about “access” to healthcare while they receive massive bribes from healthcare companies to pull support away from Single Payer and offer a “choice” or “access to health care”. Remember 2016 and 2020? The DNC pulled out all stops to prevent Single Payer. Remember when Bloomberg ran for office and claimed , “under my governorship, New York had less uninsured people than at any time in history” while failing to mention that he enacted steep penalties for being uninsured? That’s neoliberal gaslighting 101! Kamala loves to do it too! But yeah vote for her because she’s “one of the good guys” and certainly wasn’t one of the people that was tasked with preventing Bernie Sanders from winning the primary two cycles in a row, offering “Medicare for All who want it” so stacked with asterisks and legalese means-testing that probably like 50 people would qualify.
Edit: In my opinion, anyone who is paid to run for office and vote against Single Payer is a murderer guilty of (or at least partly responsible for) the slow, often-painful execution of these 68,000 American citizens per year.
I have student loans that I’d love forgiven but I don’t even mention that issue because true Single Payer (and Gaza obviously) are my moral lines in the sand that almost everyone in Congress except Rashida Tlaib has brazenly trampled.
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/Fact-Sheet_Medicare-for-All-2023.pdf
In 2017, Harris was the first senator to co-sponsor Bernie Sanders’ bill, the Medicare for All Act of 2017. “Here, I’ll break some news,” she said that year at a town hall in Oakland, California. “I intend to co-sponsor the Medicare-for-all bill, because it’s just the right thing to do.” 15 other Democrats eventually joined her.
That bill, if enacted, would have abolished private health insurance for all age groups (including Medicare beneficiaries) and replaced it with a government-run single-payer system to benefit “every individual who is a resident of the United States,” including undocumented immigrants.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2024/08/13/why-health-policy-problems-rarely-get-solved/?
yeah too neolib, better to stick with Trump, he’ll really get the single payer socialist healthcare going with the fascism and stuff, cause he really cares about people.
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You’re the one telling people not to vote for her.
That’s neoliberal gaslighting 101! Kamala loves to do it too! But yeah vote for her because she’s “one of the good guys” and certainly wasn’t…
Until Nov 2024 she is the only option. She’s not perfect but now is not the time to seek a perfect Bernie. Political realities matter. Criticism is fine but anyone saying “do you really want to vote for her” is either a Russian mouthpiece or very clueless.
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And regardless of differing opinions, calling someone an asshole and moron is not at all condusive to productive discussion, and is downright rude and disrespectful.
How does that help anything? We’re both for single payer healthcare as a human right, and support for the neolib right now is quickest path to get there. I don’t like it either, but infighting only helps fascists.
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You do realize she literally cannot win, right? Check back here in mid November.
Ok
@[email protected] 87 days
You may have heard about “Obamacare” or the “Affordable Care Act”. This did a lot of things which helped some but also did not do much.
For example, insurance premiums can cost hundreds of dollars per month, but if you get subsidies you can reduce that cost down to, potentially, zero. Unfortunately these subsidies are in the form of tax credits, which means if you don’t work you do not get any subsidies.
Additionally, if you happen to live in a red state, then your state probably didn’t expand Medicaid. Medicaid is the government insurance for poor people. If your state didn’t expand it, then your state only gives Medicaid to families and disabled people (basically). So if you don’t have kids, you don’t qualify for it.
For me, this means that when I stopped working and got insurance through the ACA, I had to pay $500 per month in health insurance premiums (dental and vision are separate insurance plans and not typically covered in standard health insurance). Did I mention this was while I wasn’t working?
With that $500 per month, I still had a $900 deductible (so I had to pay $900 before the insurance company would pay anything). After that $900, my insurance company paid different rates depending on the service (often called coinsurance). A common percentage is 80/20, which means insurance will pay 80% and you will pay 20%. So hospital bills tend to be thousands of dollars. BUT insurance plans also have what’s called an “out of pocket max” which means your insurance will cover services at 100%. So any medical things you do after that magic number are basically free for you (you still have to pay the premium).
Ok, but you might have also heard that elderly folks have their own government insurance - called Medicare. Medicare is also available for disabled people like me.
Medicare is confusing AF. It has multiple parts to it - I will only talk about what’s called “traditional Medicare”, which basically means everything is between you and the government (There’s other Medicare plans through private insurance companies, and those plans are similar to what I described above).
So with traditional Medicare there’s Part A (hospital), Part B (basically outpatient services), and Part D (prescriptions). Part A is free for most people, part B currently costs about $75 per month, and part D varies but is much like the private insurance above. If you only have part A, then only hospital visits will be covered. If you only have A and B, then none of your medications will be covered! It sucks.
So remember how I said about the deductibles and coinsurance? So Medicare has their deductibles and coinsurance separate for each part! For my part A, if I go to the hospital, it comes out to about $1300 per DAY, but only for short hospital stays. Oh and that’s only for room and board. Longer hospital stays have different rates. Also, if you stay in the hospital too long, it starts going against your lifetime hospital days. That’s right, if you use up all your lifetime hospital days, then Medicare will just…not cover your hospitalization anymore. Ever. For the rest of your life!
And don’t forget you still have to pay extra for any imaging, medications, and doctor visits you had while in the hospital because the daily rate is basically for the bed.
Part B is a straight 80/20 coinsurance. But part B also doesn’t have an out of pocket maximum. So if you have a lot of outpatient procedures, then you will end up paying out the nose for it. Currently I basically just end up paying around $30 for each doctor’s appointment (not including lab work or any procedures).
Part D depends on what plan you get. Mine was basically 80/20, which means I was going to have to pay outrageous amounts for medications! I’m on like 25 medications and it was going to be hundreds of dollars each month just for the prescriptions. Luckily, we have programs like GoodRx! Which is basically a coupon but for medications. Unfortunately, you can’t use insurance if you use GoodRx. Also, the pharmacy won’t usually automatically compare the prices to see which method would come out cheaper for the patient. Oh, also, each pharmacy has a different price for the same medication! I’m not even talking a few dollars. Some medications can be hundreds of dollars different in pricing depending on which pharmacy you go to! And it’s not consistent either. So basically if you’re on Medicare you get to go on GoodRx every month for each prescription and see where you can get it the cheapest at and then either ask your doc to send it there or try to get it transferred. Imagine doing that with 25 prescriptions every single month!
Luckily for me, I qualify for what’s called “Extra Help.” This program pays for my Part B premium ($75) as well as part of my part D premium (it was about $100 but with the help it’s down to $75). They also bring all my prescription costs to $1.55 per medication per month. Unless it’s a brand name medication… 😬
If you’re following, when I had private insurance I was paying $500 per month in premiums alone, plus about $50-100 per month in doctor’s visits, plus about $50-100 per month in prescriptions until I met my out of pocket maximum. Then just the premium.
Nowadays, I have Medicare + Extra Help. So I pay $75 per month for my prescription premiums, plus currently about $200/month in doctor’s visits, plus about $50/month in prescriptions. So it comes out cheaper currently but if I have to go to the hospital again…well, I’m fucked.
By the way, most insurance plans do not have out of network coverage…so if you go somewhere that doesn’t have a contract with your insurance company then you will probably have to foot the bill. And a lot of the charity programs that hospitals and doctors have won’t let you apply if you have insurance soooooooooooo…
A few years ago, I went to a treatment center for a few months. My total bill was almost $200,000. My personal portion was supposed to be around $15,000. Did I mention I wasn’t working? Right. Luckily the treatment center enjoys the tax benefits they get when they write off people’s bills, because they wrote mine off. I still had to file for bankruptcy though, because that wasn’t my only medical bill.
PS insurance is often provided by your job here so if you lose your job you, at maximum, have until the end of the month with your insurance :) so don’t quit your job at the end of the month ;) there is a thing called COBRA which is supposed to bridge the gap between jobs, but it’s usually something ridiculously expensive like $700 per month for a single person’s premium (yeah, you have to pay more premiums if you want your spouse and/or kids to be covered).
Decades later I feel the biggest thing Obamacare changed was pre existing conditions. What I grew up with would horrify an 18 year old as much as what we have now horrifies a European. But yeah I’m pissed we couldn’t get single payer back then
Absolutely agree. I was a teen when it passed so did not really experience beforehand. But now I’ve been looking at pet insurance and the preexisting thing is crazy! I don’t know if it’s the same as it used to be for us, but the pet stuff is set up so even if you had one company the entire life of the pet, if you try to change companies the new company won’t cover any issues that the old company did because now they are pre-existing 😒 and a few months ago an insurance company dropped like everybody from their company so they couldn’t really get a new plan because now everything is preexisting. And it wasn’t even their choice to move. I think only 1 company allowed people to switch and honor what the old company covered.
Not to mention for us, long term disability insurance also doesn’t cover preexisting conditions. I think most life insurance doesn’t either.
If you are and remain healthy it is very expensive. If you get sick or injured or ill
It costs more than you have
Currently $1700/mo for a very healthy, young, family of three. That comes with a $5000 deductible per person (or maximum out-of-pocket of $13000 for the family).
Oversimplification, but we basically pay $33,400 per year before insurance kicks in to cover costs.
That’s ridiculous, yes. But my last uninsured trip to the ER was for an unbearable stomach pain. The 4 hour visit consisted of a shot of pain killer, a scan that showed nothing, and observation by a couple of nurses during that time. I got a RX for some chalky pill and was told to cut back on NSAIDS and alcohol. Fair enough.
The bill from the hospital was $16,000 for the bed, nurses, and scan. Then there were separate bills for the radiologist and the ER doctor, and some lab work bringing the total to ~$17,500.
I currently do not have insurance because I cannot afford it. People treat me like I’m crazy for being overly cautious about getting COVID-19, but without insurance , I could easily go bankrupt if I get it.
American healthcare is truly awful.
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that is insane… I had diverticulitis and had a ER visit also here in chile… RX and everything I think the total account was something like 250 usd… of which I paid maybe 30 usd because of my health coverage plan… how can it be 50 times more expensive ?? I pay 80 usd for my plan monthly.
Put it this way: like 70,000 people die in the US each year from lack of healthcare due to the cost.
Health insurance is a profit-driven industry, so denying claims for those that DO have health insurance is standard practice.
Most don’t see an actual physician. The average clinic visit takes about two hours after everything is said and done; you engage with a health professional a median of 12 minutes.
People drive themselves in serious medical distress or try to take an uber to the hospital instead of an ambulance.
Doctors themselves hate the medical system in the United States.
Nurses are fleeing the industry. Projected shortage of 80,000 nurses in 2025. “About 100,000 registered nurses left the workforce during the past two years due to stress, burnout and retirements, and another 610,388 reported an intent to leave by 2027.” This while baby boomers consume more and more medical resources as they age.
Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy.
So, it’s not great, no.
I work for one of the largest healthcare providers in the US. I pay $450/mo for health insurance. This is not including vision, dental, or money I set aside for FSA (a pre-tax savings account restricted for use for paying for healthcare) and for and HRA (similar to FSA, but intended for when you’re older, and our company partially matches our contributions). The FSA has been refusing to pay for legitimate doctor visits that insurance has sanctioned. I pay out of pocket for a lot of procedures that the insurance ducks, such as laser eye surgery, vasectomy or even for birth control pills prior to the vasectomy.
The laser eye surgery was ~$5,000 out of pocket, the vasectomy was ~$2,000.
I had a visit to the ER - I was driven by my partner to avoid ambulance costs, and with insurance, had to pay $450 only for the doctors to stay they couldn’t figure out what was wrong and I end back up there later that week for another $450.
I was in a car crash a few years ago and my medical costs (again, with insurance) came out to ~$250,000.
This is while making $85,000/yr working as a Senior IT Engineer, and paying $2,700/mo for rent.
Generally speaking, with insurance, we’re probably paying about twice as much for any given situation, but insurance itself is also expensive and likes to dodge paying for as much as possible.
Thanks for the info! For a comparison I’ll give you mine:
Switzerland has the worlds second most expensive healthcare system, also with private insurance providers. There are some differences to the US though. Having health insurance is mandatory and there are state contributions for people who couldn’t afford it otherwise. And we have a certain defined level of base insurance with defined coverage that the insurers all have to offer and that you can’t be denied for.
Anyway I pay $480/mo for mine, which has a few extras over the base, like sharing a room with only one instead of three people in a hospital stay. I haven’t used it much though, so I can’t tell you from experience what sort of co-pay I would be looking at, but I believe it’s capped. https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/versicherungen/krankenversicherung/krankenversicherung-versicherte-mit-wohnsitz-in-der-schweiz/praemien-kostenbeteiligung.html
This is while making $85,000/yr working as a Senior IT Engineer, and paying $2,700/mo for rent.
Oh shit, I thought IT people in the US made more than here in Switzerland?! Or is that only in specific areas of California?
I live on the outskirts of Zürich and rent for our 3 room flat is $3’200/mo. However, I started on about $100’000/yr as a Junior Network Engineer directly after completing my master’s degree in Computer Science in 2021.
What the heck? Hire me. Can I work remote from the US?
I had a vasectomy this year, it came at a negative price for me as food and three days in hospital were covered.
That’s what I said, but of course I paid a little for it out of my salary.
As you mentioned there is a dance between insurance companies and care providers. You should never pay a bill on the spot or upon first receiving it. Always wait until it says final warning. Often by then the bill has been reduced significantly.
There are many ways for the system to suck. When my wife and I were working it was less expensive for me to be covered by my company’s insurance and her by hers because adding a spouse to one policy was more expensive. This is because when you are working for a company that has a plan (not all provide this) the company usually pitches in on the cost of the insurance. The amount the company pays relative to the employee has typically been shrinking over the years. Combined the two of us paid about $500/month. Now that we are retired it is about $1500/month and the deductible has doubled to about $700 (which as I understand it isn’t too bad). There is also something called a co-pay, which is a small amount you pay for normal office visits regardless of anything else. Ours was $25. Now it is $50.
Coverages were all over the place. For a while we paid more to both be in the same insurance because my wife’s insurance would not cover alternative forms of birth control. My wife could not take the pill because it caused her to get blood clots. Ironically they would have paid (way more) for the birth of a child.
When my wife had a major issue, we found that ambulance services do not negotiate prices with insurance the same way as doctors, if at all. She was airlifted for a cost of $55k. Insurance paid $11k for some reason. The hospital stay (approx. 5 days) was $120k. Her max out-of-pocket was $16k, which we paid. Despite this, the air ambulance service was insisting that we pay the $44k and the insurance company was not budging on this. We had the same problem with the ground ambulance for $1600. This went on for like 2 years while my wife acted as intermediary trying to get the ambulance service to lower their price and the insurance company to raise theirs, figuring that having hit our maximum out-of-pocket meant we were off the hook. Not so. We were expected to pay this. Ultimately we were saved in the end when my wife’s employer paid those bills.
After that, assuming that because we had hit our max, it would be good for me to get my colonoscopy, we wound up paying the whole co-pay and deductible because I was not considered family. Yup, I’m a spouse. Apparently family means children. Why didn’t they say this? Probably to get people to do what I did.
So one of the biggest problems I think is when people don’t have insurance or they do have insurance but no real savings to speak of, they avoid getting health care for fear of the high cost.
In New York a while back there was a viral video of a woman who had her leg trapped between the subway train and the platform and all of the people on the platform teamed up to tilt the entire train a bit to free her. It is an awesome video of humans being kind. What wasn’t as viral was the fact that the woman had just prior to that, pleaded with the people on the platform NOT to call for help because she couldn’t afford it. Very sad for a country with so many resources.
That is completely terrifying. You must be spending a large part of your life desperately dealing with medical bills and trying to juggle the unreasonable requirements of the various parties.
And of course, having health insurance through an employer binds you to that employer, so you are less free to switch even if the conditions are otherwise deplorable.
You’re exactly right and it gets so much worse. I had a friend who needed a new lens in his eye. There were 3 options. For lack of a better explanation, it was, normal, better and best. His insurance only covered normal. So unless he could cough up more money, he only had the one choice.
My sister-in-law got very sick. She was in the hospital for almost a month. In the end, she died. My brother-in-law who was the executor of her will told me he saw the bill. It was $3.2M. You can’t force a dead person to pay and he was not responsible for her bills so it was pretty much just written off. But holy cow!
I think people in this country who think we have the greatest health care in the world, simply haven’t used it.
yes, that’s about right.
My employer’s insurance plan, which is REALLY good mind you, takes $2800 annually in premiums, then actually starts to cover your expenses after you’ve spent $1600 on health care. That is, unless you’re “out of network”, AKA the hospital/office doesn’t have a contract with your insurance company, in which case it kicks in after $3200. So basically, minimum of $4400, max of $6000, and that’s for like the top 1% best insurance available, assuming you’re only doing things your insurance covers.
That’s so useless. I had 3 surgeries and multiple visits to doctors last year. I paid the equivalent of $150 for that. I love Sweden.
I wonder how this compares to my Canadian tax contribution to healthcare
It doesn’t, since govt. subsidies still go to healthcare in America, so I’m paying for this privilege in taxes and insurance premiums.
The portion per capita that Americans pay for Medicare and Medicaid is about the same as Canadians pay for our Healthcare. Then they get the privilege of paying insurers and others for the coverage they have if they don’t qualify for those two programs.
that’d be $4400 and $6000
I shouldn’t write Lemmy posts while driving, my math becomes silly 💀
you uh… probably should not be on your phone while driving. stay safe, friend.
Different ask lemmy thread about crazy stuff seen while driving is leaking.
My insurance costs several times that but I still have plan where everything is a small copay (except of course dental)
WILDLY depends. And it is never simple.
If I break an arm, and I go to the hospital, and there’s not much that’s done aside from a cast, and some PT at the end, I pay $0.
Now, what does that mean?
We have had our insurance for a long time, and as we pay our monthly premiums, a little money goes into an account called an FSA. This pays some of the co-pay, deductibles, etc. in the background for us.
What happens if I get cancer and need to have some care for 7 years? Eventually that FSA runs out. Every insurance has a deductible that you pay before they start paying for everything. So we might have to pay $5k out of pocket annually and then insurance pays the rest.
What if I need to travel to another city to talk to a specialist? There might be airfare, hotels, food, etc. that we pay that is “part of the treatment” but not paid for by insurance.
What if I need medication? Might be $25 every trip to the pharmacy. Might be $300. Depends on the medication, how new it is, are there cheaper alternatives?
What if I get sick long enough where I lose my job? I might lose my insurance as well, and then have to apply for government assistance, that might make other medical bills different.
I assume you need to have health insurance? As in, you mention paying 0$ if you break your arm. But do you have to pay monthly premiums for it to be 0 at the hospital ?
And I have no idea but - presumably you would claim on the insurance for the broken arm, does that then impact your monthly premiums or coverage afterwards?
As part of our employment, our employer has negotiated that we pay $400 a month for my family to have insurance under these terms.
If I had a different employer, those terms could be wildly different. I would have no choice.
It is EXTREMELY complicated, and extremely different for everyone in the country, and depends heavily on how your employer sets up the benefits. This is a major benefit for large corporations, and a major burden for smaller businesses.
If you buy insurance through the private market, it is usually far more expensive, but often subsidized by the government, since you often only buy from the market if you are unemployed or low income.
you often only buy from the market if you are unemployed or low income.
Don’t forget self employed or at a workplace with workplace insurance so bad it’s actually cheaper to go through private (so basically low income)
I know multiple small business owners who also have a regular corporate job JUST so they have insurance. The whole second job has nothing to do with salary, only health insurance.
Every family farm I know, the husband works the farm while the wife works a normal job for insurance and stable base income to help keep everything afloat
If you have insurance through your employer, then no the insurance company can’t raise your rates. And part of the reason for the Affordable Care Act (ACA, sometimes called Obamacare) was to make it so people who are getting the insurance themselves also can’t have their rates raised or get turned down for insurance because they have pre-existing conditions. However insurance companies can raise everyone’s rates when the insurance is up for renewal each year.
Most insurance plans have several different costs: 1. The monthly premium you pay to have insurance coverage. Some employers pay this themselves, otherwise it gets taken out of every pay check.
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Co-pay: Usually a set amount ($30, for example) you pay to see a doctor for office appointments that aren’t an annual check-up*. So say I get an ear infection and see my primary doctor to get it treated, I’d pay the co-pay for that visit. Sometimes things like x-rays, blood work, CTs can be a set amount, other times it’s something like insurance will cover 65% of the cost. For some plans, co-pays are included when figuring out if you’ve reached your deductible.
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Deductible: The amount you have to pay before “co-insurance” kicks in. Co-insurance being the percent of your bill insurance will pay (for us it’s 75% after we pay $3500 in a calendar year).
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Out of pocket max: When you’ve spent this amount in a calendar year after that insurance covers 100%. Often plans have both individual and family maximums, with the family amount being higher.
Usually the more you pay in monthly premiums, the lower your deductible and out of pocket maximums will be. So each year people have to try and decide what they think their health bills will be next year when picking their plan (you can’t change plans mid-year unless something happens like changing job, getting married/divorced, having a kid). If you’re pretty healthy you might pick a lower monthly plan with higher out of pocket amounts because you don’t expect to have to pay much out of pocket. If you’re someone with a chronic condition or you’re expecting to need surgery or a costly treatment you might go with the higher monthly plan so you don’t have as high of out of pocket amounts.
For example, my spouse had to go to the ER a few years ago for what turned out to be a collapsed lung. They didn’t have to stay in the hospital overnight. I forget the total bill (or I’ve just blocked it from my memory), but our part ended up being about $5,000. Insurance kicked in after the bill got to $3,500, and they covered 75% of everything that was over $3,500. The most we would’ve paid was $6,000 (the individual out of pocket max), however we would still have to pay bills for myself and our kid up to $12,000 (family out of pocket max).
*Another part of the ACA was to make annual preventative screenings (like annual physical, mammogram for women over a certain age, prostate screening for men, etc) free.
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I don’t contribute to the FSA, that’s an automatic part of my health insurance.
Some people contribute separately to an FSA or an HSA depending on their insurance, but that’s not an option for my situation.
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And not to forget that sometimes cheaper but equally effective drugs aren’t available under the insurance plan. Like auto insurance and their prefered shops and stuff.
Oh plus that FSA must run out really quick when private hospitals charge bug money for an aspirin because they trying to gouge the insurance company who probably doesn’t even care for other twisted reasons.
Not always. There’s still a max annual out of pocket expense, which is what is covered by the FSA. A single event, or an illness or accident that only requires care for a single year or two, regardless of how expensive, would not deplete the FSA. It’s only a chronic condition that requires hitting the max out of pocket for multiple consecutive years that would start to deplete that buffer.
That’s all assuming that I can continue to work, and don’t have any other non-medical expenses during the recovery.
I had to go to the emergency room for a staph infection. No insurance. Got billed 4k lol. Even though it’s destroyed my credit, I refuse to pay it. In the US this unpaid bill will fall off of me credit report in 7 years, it’s been 3 thus far. 4 more to go!
Sooner if Biden or Harris can get the legislation hrough
Yeah they’re really CLAMORING to hurt the bottom line of their biggest donors and their entire cabinet. /s
I’ve been hoping for it to pass but we’ll see
My wife recently had to get an array of bloodwork done. It was ~$700 after all of the office visits and lab stuff had been completed. And that’s all out-of-pocket, because our deductible (how much we have to pay per calendar year before insurance kicks in) is several thousand dollars. And we pay them ~$600 per month out of my paycheck for coverage, for just myself and my wife; If we ever have kids, the full family coverage (as opposed to just two people being covered) spikes up to nearly $1600 per month.
The monthly premium being $600, plus the deductible means we end up paying ~$10k per year before insurance even begins covering things. And even after the deductible, they only cover 80% of the bill, and we’re responsible for the remaining 20%. So if one of us has an extended stay in a hospital with a $150k bill, we’ll end up paying the $3k deductible, plus $29,400 (that’s 20% of the remaining $147k.)
And all of that is assuming everything is “in network”. Insurance companies have networked doctors, who have contracts with the company. If you see an out-of-network doctor, the insurance will often refuse to cover it, or cover it at a vastly reduced rate. Not-so-fun fact: Nearly all anesthesiologists are out of network, because they have a separate labor union that refuses to sign network contracts with insurance companies. So if you go into a surgery, even if you insist that every single doctor, nurse, aid, etc is in network, you’ll still always get an out-of-network bill from the anesthesiologist.
Oh, also, dental and vision are entirely separate plans. Because somewhere along the lines, insurance companies decided that you need to pay for a totally separate plan to have functioning teeth or eyes.
There’s a reason medical debt has historically been the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US.
The American “healthcare” system is fundamentally broken, and no amount of patchwork fixes will change that. We need to throw it all out and start from scratch.
The answer is “it depends”. There are so many hoops and loopholes and gotchas built into the system that 2 identical people with the exact same background and ailment(s) could go see the exact same medical staff and yet still end up having to pay 2 completely different amounts for their care. But it’s more complicated than that, because there are a myriad factors that come into play (insurance versus none, location/state of residence, etc) so there’s no one concise and accurate answer to these types of questions.
Most non-wealthy people who don’t have insurance, but who don’t qualify for government/public medical care, simply go without care. Or they use the emergency room loophole to get some kind of treatment. The loophole, with lots of nuance and caveats, is that the emergency room has to at least give you enough treatment to temporarily stabilize your condition, regardless of your ability to pay.
For check-ups and counseling - In a lot of places that sort of stuff requires you to pay up front. You can sometimes haggle or work out a payment plan. If you’re poor enough to qualify for government aid, it may be free. Otherwise, you’re expected to have insurance and pay the co-pay. If that doesn’t apply, these places usually have a “cash” price that’s slightly more affordable, but still usually require payment ahead of time.
For meds, you basically always pay up front. There’s really no concept of pharmacies providing medications in a manner where you can pay later. No money means no meds. It’s also ridiculous to even ask how much a person would expect to pay for meds, it could be as little as a few USD to thousands, really depends on the meds, quantity needed, location, etc.
Xrays - This is where debt might actually come into play. You usually pay for these after the fact. If you go to the doctor, you might have to pay the standard fee (or copay) up front, but all the other services/tests/etc are charged after the fact. So you’ll end up getting a bill after you’ve gotten the xray and consultation. To be honest, I don’t know the average out of pocket cost for an x-ray if you don’t have insurance, but it would differ from location to location and region to region. If you don’t pay that bill, you’ll get harassed and most likely you’ll have to change doctors because the office you owe money to won’t see you again until your debt is paid or you’ve worked out a payment plan.
For people with insurance, there’s pretty much always a maximum yearly out of pocket amount, after which things are basically all paid for by insurance. Again there are nuances and caveats. And the maximum out of pocket varies by insurance policy, number of people insured, etc, but $8,000 - $20,000 are not uncommon amounts. To be honest, I don’t even know what mine is, I’ve never actually reached it. Not everything is covered by the maximum out of pocket, though.
$27,000 medical debt could possibly be from someone who was uninsured or it may be several years of medical debt.
To give you an idea of how crazy the system is: I had a hairline fracture several years ago and what was deemed as “good” insurance. By the time everything was done, it ended up costing me around $3,000 out of pocket. That’s for co-pays, x-rays, medication, etc over the course of months.
On the other hand: A family member of mine had a heart attack, required emergency surgery, had no insurance, and had no money to pay for anything. In the end cost them less than a few hundred USD out of pocket. Hospital wiped the debt clean. Government programs and drug company programs paid for meds. Eventually disability stuff kicked in and took care of everything else.
For people with insurance, there’s pretty much always a maximum yearly out of pocket amount, after which things are basically all paid for by insurance.
With a few caveats, yes. At least with the insurance I had last year when I hit the max for the first time, it has to be both deemed medically necessary to do, and be in network. Just because you hit your annual out-of-pocket max doesn’t mean you can get free cosmetic surgery, for example. Out of network treatment also had a separate annual max, so if I saw the wrong specialist or went to the wrong hospital during an emergency, I could still have gotten hit with another $10,000 in bills before that kicked in. And finally, I learned that there are actually annual maximums for certain types of treatment. In my case, I have an autoimmune condition and my doctor wanted me to get blood work done for it every 3 months. In their boundless wisdom, my insurance decided I shouldn’t need blood work more than three times a year, and I got a $1,700 bill for going over the annual limit for such care.
The limitlessness of their wisdom and beneficence is matched only by my pettiness, so I had the pleasure of having my first colonoscopy and an endoscopy the day after Christmas because my gastro said there was a tiny possibility of me having a problem more serious than hemorrhoids and I knew those assholes would have to pay for it, since they pre-authorized it, which added a few grand to what they had to pay for the year.
“However, I have an American friend who is quick to point out that apparently nobody actually pays those bills. They’re just some elaborate dance between insurance companies and hospitals. If you don’t have insurance, the cost is lower or removed entirely. Supposedly.”
Partial Truth.
Healthcare providers have negotiated prices for services. These prices are negotiated per insurer.
Blue Cross and Blue shield will pay them X dollars for Deep Sleep anesthesia. United Healthe care will pay them a different amount. Medicare will pay them yet a different amount. Bob’s backyard healthcare will pay more because they don’t have buying power.
If you walk in without coverage, the provider “can” charge you a reduced rate. They are not required to. They do NOT universally offer that.
If you get the procedure done anyway, agree to pay and cannot pay your health bill, the provider “can” just let you off the hook or reduce your rate. They do NOT usually do that. That’s the exception.
If you go to a provider that accepts your insurance (they all do not) and book a procedure, the provider has to get the procedure covered by the insurer. If the insurer decides not to cover the procedure, you can call the provider and try to create a grievance. The back-and-forth is maddening.
My local doctor said I needed a colonoscopy (it’s just that time, no emergent issues)
My insurer authorized the procedure but not the anesthesia.
The office offered to pay out of pocket for the anesthesia ($1200), but I declined because I couldn’t afford it. They also offered to set up payments if I paid 50% upfront, but I declined because that didn’t help me. I can’t take on another $100 / month for 12 months.
I spoke with the GI doctor, a second GI doctor, and my General Practitioner. They all said that people here really don’t get the procedure without anesthesia, and it was a bad idea for both the doctor performing the procedure and for me.
I contacted the insurer, but they refused. Another GI doctor contacted the insurer, but they refused.
My insurer decided in January that they will not cover anesthesia for a colonoscopy unless someone can prove you’re frail enough it might kill you.
We have federal laws that mandate insurers to cover the anesthesia for this procedure, but state-level insurers (hint: they’re all state now) don’t have to follow their rules.
So here I am, two years late for a colonoscopy, wondering if I have pre-cancer or cancer brewing down there, but can’t manage to pay for what is considered by all providers here a necessary part of the procedure.
It’s not great here.
Plus all of that negotiating is baked into the end costs which is why in the US on average we spend twice as much on medical care with worse outcomes and not everyone is covered.
The insurance companies having more say than doctors about what procedures you can and can’t get is peak insanity, and yet here we are.
You need to consider your health first and only. You get the anesthesia and then you either ignore the bills or pay a little bit what you can. Either way eventually you’ll be able to close it out by paying maybe half.
Alternatively, you can tell the doc to either give you the anesthesia for free or go with the insurance attitude and have the procedure without it and - should something go wrong because it is not what you are supposed to do - then you have yourself a juicy malpractice suit for them.
The investors who make money from this bullshit write our laws. That’s the problem. We allowed it to happen by having such dumb fucking morons for citizenry who vote for these monsters who then turn around and rape them. And then they vote for them again. Our people are mostly absolute morons who can’t think for themselves and so they follow the shiniest trinket they obey the loudest voice with the bleached smile and the most promises.
And yes, conservatives are to blame and yes, there are awful liberals as well but the simple truth is republicans need to fucking die. They are a deadly cancer to our society because all they do is ruin everything except their own pockets.
Doc will not provide anesthesia for free. The insurance company will not budge.
I’m not in a situation where I can just keep hopping over doctors while they all send me to collections, even though $600 is too much to swallow at the moment.
If I do end up with any form of GI cancer, a lawsuit against the insurer seems pretty reasonable.
The people here already spoke of the option of medical tourism, can’t you look up that ? A colonoscopy is not some advanced tech, any decent hospital in latin america will be able to do that. Since you earn US dollars, you could research about making a trip to Mexico (possibly the cheapest option, because it can be done by bus or car), Cuba (possibly the cheapest too, because of the conversion rate and short plane distance), Brazil, etc for the travel, lodging and procedure (and even a little tourism too if you have the time and will XD ).
I’m mid-atlantic. Procedure + flight + basic accommodation is still around 2/3 of the anesthesia. Medical tourism works well when you’re uninsured or when the whole procedure isn’t covered. Sadly, I’m already paying a fortune for the insurance. It’s a mid-high plan Blue Cross. F’ing insane they’re taking this line.
I’m really sorry for your situation. I would personally just get it done, commit to paying them and then just stretch it out maybe a few bucks at a time. Your health is more important. But I do wish you the best of health.
I was on Medicaid for many years but I’m really lucky now my wife is in the teachers union and we have very decent insurance. But the entire system is a big stinking chaotic farce to which the terms “broken” and “mayhem” are even too light to apply.
But as long as our government is in the employ of the 1% nothing is gonna change. We seriously need to start stringing up some billionaires and take their money for everyone.
I have Blue Cross and Blue Shield. a mid-upper tier plan. They just decided to stop covering this.
WTF? I have to say this makes no sense to me. I think you need to double and triple check, try another facility perhaps? Something. To cover a colonoscopy but not anesthesia is unheard of, and even freakin Medicaid would pay for it.
https://www.anthem.com/dam/medpolicies/abcbs/active/guidelines/gl_pw_a050126.html
Anthem BCBS classifies it as not medically necessary so they will not pay for it since April of this year.
Jesus. That’s disgusting.
Edit: Hang on I just skimmed that document it seems to indicate it IS considered medically necessary.
Edit edit:
* Prolonged or therapeutic endoscopic procedure requiring deep sedation such as endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatography (ERCP) or repeat colonoscopy due to tortuous colon; **or** * A history of or anticipated poor response due to cross tolerance or paradoxical reaction to standard sedatives used during moderate (conscious) sedation specifically due to narcotics or benzodiazepines; **or** * Increased risk for complication due to severe comorbidity (American Society of Anesthesiologists \[ASA] class III physical status or greater. See Appendix for physical status classifications); **or** * Individuals over 70; **or** * Individuals under the age of 18; **or** * Pregnancy; **or** * History of drug or alcohol abuse; **or** * Uncooperative or acutely agitated individuals (for example, delirium, organic brain disease, senile dementia); **or**Uncooperative or acutely agitated individuals. Tell the doc to tell the insurance that it makes you crazy without it and you can’t tolerate it. Jeez is your doctor new at doing these things? That’s what they do they submit whatever criteria is accepted that they don’t have to prove with charts.
