One side is trying to rob the rights of a group of people, the other side is burning down their own cities claiming to be saving the lives of a marginalized group. One side is advocating for guns to stay legal and accessible while children are mass murdered, the other side has members dressing up in all black and assaulting people in their peaceful protests. One side is denying climate change as the world literally crumbles in front of us, the other is advocating for the abolition of all law enforcement officers.
Both sides are so fucking stupid that I’d feel embarrassed to be a part of either. While my principles are more in line with the left, they are so far from an ideal party that I still wince knowing they’re the best choice I have. Centrists are hated by both sides because we aren’t partisan dick suckers but my god try to have an independent thought. You don’t have to completely agree with every shit take your party churns out. You’re allowed to not be happy with them and still vote for them.
the other is advocating for the abolition of all law enforcement.
This is a non sequitur, and also false beyond fringes.
To be fair, this last one was a slogan explicitly used, at a level where it could be reasonably seen as mainstream depending on how much time you spent on the wrong websites.
Kinda interesting, really— In-group signalling incentives greatly harmed the chances for successful out-group messaging.
And sad, maybe— Could have possibly gotten a good thing going at that point— But I guess “Decrease funding to violent law enforcement in order to reallocate more resources to preventative and constructive community services” just doesn’t have the right ring to it in today’s media environment.
As it was, it was big enough to get serious attention from several major cities, while also being self-defeating enough to thus far have had apparently basically no lasting positive impact whatsoever yet.
Maybe it’s just me, but my default interpretation when I hear about something being “defunded” is more or less synonymous with complete elimination.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter, since everything else that comment was saying was indeed just bunk, and even this funding thing was indeed still at most a relatively fringe messaging failure.
So it doesn’t matter that a dozen buildings were set on fire, looted, and ruined? Doesn’t matter shop owners were beat with planks of wood? So long as we’re under that 15% it’s acceptable, yeah? I’m glad the defense is “Well they didn’t do enough of it so what’s your point?”
Holy fuck you don’t even know what moving the goalposts means. I didn’t realize how fucking awful the left was with the pseudo intellectualism. Call it a strawman next. Oh oh, ad hominem too. Just throw all the terms at the wall and hope to god you sound smart. Here, I’ll help you since you have such a short memory.
Who are the people that allegedly did this and what are their affiliations? Who of any prominence endorses them? You keep bringing this nonsense up as if it has any kind of relevance or traction outside the right wing lying liars’ echo chambers.
Burning down their cities? Where the fuck is that happening? I’m so sick of that blatant lie. You aren’t a centrist, you’re a liar, and that’s why people hate you.
Hell yeah, deaths don’t matter till we hit at least a million. Cities burning don’t count till the whole thing falls. That’s some awesome standards you’ve got.
The other thing here is that these people make this implicit leap to assuming it’s somehow some liberals/leftists that did any of the acts of vandalism. Who is endorsing any of that on the left? I mean, someone of actual prominence and viewed with reverence by people on the left?
“That’s paywalled” - The picture of them reducing a building to ash isn’t.
“Or if they did, they rebuilt very quickly” - Here I’ll help you CARRY THOSE GOALPOSTS. Where we putting them down at this time?
(That’s how that term is used by the way.)
I’m bored of this same song on repeat though, have a good day, please have some independent thoughts.
Who did it and who are they affiliated with? Those of us not glued to right wing apology and grievance networks and who do not have the memory of a goldfish might remember The Umbrella Man:
Perhaps you’d prefer we reduce reduce the scale of police duties so we can have dedicated public safety responders for different situations? We can fund it by proportionally using money that police no longer need.
I’d prefer to have elected oversight committees that dictate exactly where every dollar of the police budget goes so we stop buying Armored Personal Carriers from military surplus and put it into fucking training so people don’t confuse their tasers with their sidearms. I’d like a perfect police force that doesn’t fuck up and panic leading to people dying unnecessarily, but that doesn’t happen if they have less money for proper training. It doesn’t happen so long as they’re only accountable to themselves.
I’m down to make the police better, to structure the systems in a better way. I’m not down to abolish them and leave a gaping hole where a critical pillar of society should be.
Nobody who is worth listening to ever advocated for abolishing all police and not replacing them with something else. Pretty much everyone agrees that some form of law enforcement is necessary. There are differences in what that law enforcement looks like, but I feel like everyone other than cops can see that police culture and the way that they abuse their power and protect each other is a problem.
The problem with how you look at things is that you’re seeing only the most extreme positions of each group and assuming that each “side” holds those views.
“Burning down their own cities claiming to be saving the lives of a marginalized group”. Yes, looting happens, things are broken. Things. Property. Because at the end of the day, what our system listens to is the interests of business owners, and they listen to lost money. Stonewall was a riot, and whether or not you think that it’s better to go through bureaucracy to stop the oppression of minorities or not, clearly riots are effective. These cities aren’t being destroyed, and they get repaired, and sure that sucks for the business owners that have to deal with that… but human lives matter more.
I think the people that you are thinking of, who are dressing up and assaulting peaceful protests are the proud boys. Who are fascists. Most leftists protesters are not attacking people, they are defending themselves. Because cops happily resort to violence first and foremost.
“advocating for the abolition of all law enforcement officers.”
Strict punishment and law enforcement doesn’t work. In the US we have incredibly high rates of recidivism, and more prisoners than pretty much any other country. Cops solve very few crimes, and are there to protect property rather than people. That’s why when protests happen, they go out in armored vehicles and use tear gas to protect businesses, but they would never do that you protect you or your home. Eliminating modern cops doesn’t mean that you do nothing to enforce laws and protect your communities, it has to do with how that effort is organized. The profit based power-trip cops we have exist because the system is broken.
The problem with centrism, in general, is that ignorance of nuance. You aren’t right just because you picked a point in the middle. One side is fascists, and the other just wants to live.
“The problem with centrism, in general, is that ignorance of nuance.”
I love how you preceded this comment illustrating how black and white everything is and after say “one side is fascists and the other isn’t”
You do realize nuance would be cascading gray, yes? That it means the right side would also have some level of nuance, yes? Both sides LOVE to jerk themselves off as intellectual juggernauts then contradict themselves because they’re not actually the intellectuals they claim to be, they’re regurgitating what they heard smarter people argue on their behalf.
“strict punishment and law enforcement doesn’t work”
holy fuck point to a single country, providence, or territory in the world that can operate without law enforcement. You are unironically advocating for anarchy and can’t see how fucking retarded the notion of that is.
“it sure sucks business owners have to deal with that but human lives are more important.”
So to save lives you destroy other people’s livelihoods? Did it work? Are we done now or are those people out tens of thousands of dollars? Their entire lifes work destroyed because you wanted some fucking attention and did fuck all with it. No, that’s such a shit take that your empty fucking virtue will not save you from.
They dress up in white hoods, you dress up in black beanies. You’re two sides of the same god awful coin and instead of pursuing a change that would disrupt two shit choices, you fully embrace one and denigrate critics. You are just barely less of the monster you claim the right is and you’re so devoid of the nuance you believe to be aware of that you refuse to step back and criticize your own failures. Refuse to improve so that detractors have less to call you out on.
The world is not black and white, of course. But if we’re talking about the modern day Republican party and it’s voters, it’s very clear what’s going on. I’m no intellectual, and neither are you, so let’s keep this respectful. I’ll repeat that eliminating our police force doesn’t mean not enforcing laws, but rather is rooted in how that effort is organized. Most crime is a direct result of poverty, if you want to effectively decrease crime, you need to improve people’s standards of living. Things like affordable housing projects, raising minimum wages, more paid vacation, better public transportation, cancelling student debt, decriminalization of drug possession and use, etc.
Our police force doesn’t want to decrease crime because our prisons are for-profit and they make more of they book more prisoners.
You can point fingers at me if you want. I guess? I haven’t participated in looting or rioting. My point was that it’s effective regardless of whether you support it.
Also, humanity enforced laws for a long time before our police system was designed.
If only one side is trying to take away equal rights from a group, and you respond by saying “nuh uh both sides” then yes you are a hater and a moron.
Wanting to live in peace is just so aggressive
Removed by mod
One side is trying to rob the rights of a group of people, the other side is burning down their own cities claiming to be saving the lives of a marginalized group. One side is advocating for guns to stay legal and accessible while children are mass murdered, the other side has members dressing up in all black and assaulting people in their peaceful protests. One side is denying climate change as the world literally crumbles in front of us, the other is advocating for the abolition of all law enforcement officers.
Both sides are so fucking stupid that I’d feel embarrassed to be a part of either. While my principles are more in line with the left, they are so far from an ideal party that I still wince knowing they’re the best choice I have. Centrists are hated by both sides because we aren’t partisan dick suckers but my god try to have an independent thought. You don’t have to completely agree with every shit take your party churns out. You’re allowed to not be happy with them and still vote for them.
This is a fact.
This is conjecture.
This is a fact and a mainstream position of one side.
This is a fantasy. And even were it true it’s not a mainstream position.
This is a fact.
This is a non sequitur, and also false beyond fringes.
Actually, it’s not “conjecture”, it’s a full-on lie
To be fair, this last one was a slogan explicitly used, at a level where it could be reasonably seen as mainstream depending on how much time you spent on the wrong websites.
Kinda interesting, really— In-group signalling incentives greatly harmed the chances for successful out-group messaging.
And sad, maybe— Could have possibly gotten a good thing going at that point— But I guess “Decrease funding to violent law enforcement in order to reallocate more resources to preventative and constructive community services” just doesn’t have the right ring to it in today’s media environment.
As it was, it was big enough to get serious attention from several major cities, while also being self-defeating enough to thus far have had apparently basically no lasting positive impact whatsoever yet.
You linked an article about cutting funding. I responded to a ridiculous comment about the abolition of all law enforcement.
Maybe it’s just me, but my default interpretation when I hear about something being “defunded” is more or less synonymous with complete elimination.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter, since everything else that comment was saying was indeed just bunk, and even this funding thing was indeed still at most a relatively fringe messaging failure.
I love when people say “burning their own cities down” point to a city that “burned down”.
Oh my bad, they didn’t 100% complete it and get all the collectables so it doesn’t count.
You’re just full of all sorts of bad takes
Not the only thing they are full of.
Which one did they complete, say, 15% of? Which city had 15% of it burned down?
So it doesn’t matter that a dozen buildings were set on fire, looted, and ruined? Doesn’t matter shop owners were beat with planks of wood? So long as we’re under that 15% it’s acceptable, yeah? I’m glad the defense is “Well they didn’t do enough of it so what’s your point?”
That’s not an answer. You said cities (multiple) “burned down.” Now you’re suggesting not even 15% of one city burned down? Make up your mind.
If you’re gonna keep moving goalposts then just hold onto them and keep walking until you hit a specific nameable city and plant them down there.
Holy fuck you don’t even know what moving the goalposts means. I didn’t realize how fucking awful the left was with the pseudo intellectualism. Call it a strawman next. Oh oh, ad hominem too. Just throw all the terms at the wall and hope to god you sound smart. Here, I’ll help you since you have such a short memory.
Do you know what moving the goalpoasts means? Why don’t you explain it to me. Perhaps with reference to how it doesn’t apply to this conversation?
Sure it matters. The point is that “a dozen buildings” is very different from " burning down their cities."
In any case it’s a bullshit premise because those rioters never represented mainstream sentiment on the left.
Who are the people that allegedly did this and what are their affiliations? Who of any prominence endorses them? You keep bringing this nonsense up as if it has any kind of relevance or traction outside the right wing lying liars’ echo chambers.
Burning down their cities? Where the fuck is that happening? I’m so sick of that blatant lie. You aren’t a centrist, you’re a liar, and that’s why people hate you.
Yep. They just told on themselves.
And I bet they have no idea why.
Which city was burned down? How many millions died?
Hell yeah, deaths don’t matter till we hit at least a million. Cities burning don’t count till the whole thing falls. That’s some awesome standards you’ve got.
So no city burned down despite you literally saying so?
The other thing here is that these people make this implicit leap to assuming it’s somehow some liberals/leftists that did any of the acts of vandalism. Who is endorsing any of that on the left? I mean, someone of actual prominence and viewed with reverence by people on the left?
Nah just hoped you had a better memory than a goldfish but here, I’ll dig up an article for you to read. Your echochamber must be real well built.
First of all, that’s paywalled.
Secondly, Minneapolis definitely did not burn down. Or if they did, they rebuilt very quickly.
“That’s paywalled” - The picture of them reducing a building to ash isn’t. “Or if they did, they rebuilt very quickly” - Here I’ll help you CARRY THOSE GOALPOSTS. Where we putting them down at this time? (That’s how that term is used by the way.) I’m bored of this same song on repeat though, have a good day, please have some independent thoughts.
Who did it and who are they affiliated with? Those of us not glued to right wing apology and grievance networks and who do not have the memory of a goldfish might remember The Umbrella Man:
The Umbrella Man
A building is much smaller than a city.
What cities burned? Who burned them? How do you know they are not off-duty cops and/or agent provocateurs that are sympathetic to fascists?
Perhaps you’d prefer we reduce reduce the scale of police duties so we can have dedicated public safety responders for different situations? We can fund it by proportionally using money that police no longer need.
I’d prefer to have elected oversight committees that dictate exactly where every dollar of the police budget goes so we stop buying Armored Personal Carriers from military surplus and put it into fucking training so people don’t confuse their tasers with their sidearms. I’d like a perfect police force that doesn’t fuck up and panic leading to people dying unnecessarily, but that doesn’t happen if they have less money for proper training. It doesn’t happen so long as they’re only accountable to themselves.
I’m down to make the police better, to structure the systems in a better way. I’m not down to abolish them and leave a gaping hole where a critical pillar of society should be.
Nobody who is worth listening to ever advocated for abolishing all police and not replacing them with something else. Pretty much everyone agrees that some form of law enforcement is necessary. There are differences in what that law enforcement looks like, but I feel like everyone other than cops can see that police culture and the way that they abuse their power and protect each other is a problem.
The problem with how you look at things is that you’re seeing only the most extreme positions of each group and assuming that each “side” holds those views.
Anime pfp and unironic Marcus Aurelius quote. I can practically see your katana and fedora collection from here.
Please just go back to reddit. We don’t want or need people like you here.
“Burning down their own cities claiming to be saving the lives of a marginalized group”. Yes, looting happens, things are broken. Things. Property. Because at the end of the day, what our system listens to is the interests of business owners, and they listen to lost money. Stonewall was a riot, and whether or not you think that it’s better to go through bureaucracy to stop the oppression of minorities or not, clearly riots are effective. These cities aren’t being destroyed, and they get repaired, and sure that sucks for the business owners that have to deal with that… but human lives matter more.
I think the people that you are thinking of, who are dressing up and assaulting peaceful protests are the proud boys. Who are fascists. Most leftists protesters are not attacking people, they are defending themselves. Because cops happily resort to violence first and foremost.
“advocating for the abolition of all law enforcement officers.”
Strict punishment and law enforcement doesn’t work. In the US we have incredibly high rates of recidivism, and more prisoners than pretty much any other country. Cops solve very few crimes, and are there to protect property rather than people. That’s why when protests happen, they go out in armored vehicles and use tear gas to protect businesses, but they would never do that you protect you or your home. Eliminating modern cops doesn’t mean that you do nothing to enforce laws and protect your communities, it has to do with how that effort is organized. The profit based power-trip cops we have exist because the system is broken.
The problem with centrism, in general, is that ignorance of nuance. You aren’t right just because you picked a point in the middle. One side is fascists, and the other just wants to live.
“The problem with centrism, in general, is that ignorance of nuance.” I love how you preceded this comment illustrating how black and white everything is and after say “one side is fascists and the other isn’t” You do realize nuance would be cascading gray, yes? That it means the right side would also have some level of nuance, yes? Both sides LOVE to jerk themselves off as intellectual juggernauts then contradict themselves because they’re not actually the intellectuals they claim to be, they’re regurgitating what they heard smarter people argue on their behalf. “strict punishment and law enforcement doesn’t work” holy fuck point to a single country, providence, or territory in the world that can operate without law enforcement. You are unironically advocating for anarchy and can’t see how fucking retarded the notion of that is. “it sure sucks business owners have to deal with that but human lives are more important.” So to save lives you destroy other people’s livelihoods? Did it work? Are we done now or are those people out tens of thousands of dollars? Their entire lifes work destroyed because you wanted some fucking attention and did fuck all with it. No, that’s such a shit take that your empty fucking virtue will not save you from.
They dress up in white hoods, you dress up in black beanies. You’re two sides of the same god awful coin and instead of pursuing a change that would disrupt two shit choices, you fully embrace one and denigrate critics. You are just barely less of the monster you claim the right is and you’re so devoid of the nuance you believe to be aware of that you refuse to step back and criticize your own failures. Refuse to improve so that detractors have less to call you out on.
The world is not black and white, of course. But if we’re talking about the modern day Republican party and it’s voters, it’s very clear what’s going on. I’m no intellectual, and neither are you, so let’s keep this respectful. I’ll repeat that eliminating our police force doesn’t mean not enforcing laws, but rather is rooted in how that effort is organized. Most crime is a direct result of poverty, if you want to effectively decrease crime, you need to improve people’s standards of living. Things like affordable housing projects, raising minimum wages, more paid vacation, better public transportation, cancelling student debt, decriminalization of drug possession and use, etc.
Our police force doesn’t want to decrease crime because our prisons are for-profit and they make more of they book more prisoners.
You can point fingers at me if you want. I guess? I haven’t participated in looting or rioting. My point was that it’s effective regardless of whether you support it.
Also, humanity enforced laws for a long time before our police system was designed.
Name one city that was “burned down”.