People in Germany have trouble to “bond” though. Unless you want to ignore the multitude of troubles some immigrants (even second and third generation) face here. To deny these also have to do with religious conservatism isn’t helpful.
That some of the children here are still forced into religion, sometimes living in a basically parallel society, is a problem that shouldn’t simply be brushed aside.
Im not denying that there are problems with integration. I’m not denying that some kids are forced into religion.
I’m saying that taking away the liberty to express your religion, won’t change anything about that. All it does is appease people who are offended or threatened by religion (Islamophobia, anti semitism etc.).
A kid that is forced into religion won’t become an atheist if it can’t wear a headdress or a cross chain in school.
I think it does help people become more free from religious oppression.
Please try to imagine you are brought up with the rule you have to cover your whole body with a veil all the time you leave your home. Especially if you are brought up to do that since you are a child. It’s a powerful tool to keep control over someone with a relative simple thing. It’s not just a necklace or some other small thing.
I can imagine that just fine and it’s horrible. I love in a country with a fuck ton of Muslim immigrants and I’m sure a lot of their children would prefer not to have to cover their hair (that’s what we’re talking about, not a burka as you describe it).
Yes it’s a powerful tool to keep kids under the influence of their parents religion. But taking away the symbols of that religion won’t make the kids atheist or magically take them out of the influence of their families. If you think that parents who enforce the strict rules of their religion because the kid can’t wear certain clothing at school, you are Truely delusional. Best case the lod doesn’t wear it in school, but still has to do so every other minute in their life. Worst case the parents pull their kids out of school, because the school threatens their influence. A lot of those kids are going to end up home schooled by their radical families or simply go to a private school, where such rules don’t exist. Neither is going to help the kid.
The abaya isn’t just a headscarf, though. It only leaves the face uncovered and I have seen kids who also additionally cover parts of their face with it.
I am not sure of the details in current laws in France, many (most?) countries in Western Europe do not allow homeschooling and private schools have to follow almost all of the same laws as state schools.
Personally I think we need to do more to push back against conservatism, not less.
The abaya isn’t just a headscarf, though. It only leaves the face uncovered and I have seen kids who also additionally cover parts of their face with it.
I just googled it and it’s literally a fucking dress. Sure it’s often combined with a headscarf or (I guess this is what most people have a problem with, a Niqab), but how can you tell women (and often also men) not to wear a dress?
You’re right about the homeschooling (not so much on the private schools, but that’s not really relevant to the point), but that doesn’t stop religious radicals to pull their kids from schools so they can better indoctrinate the kids themselves. This was a common problem during the pandemic, where parents who didn’t agree with the state policies pulled their kids from school and it’s a common problem in counties where homeschooling is legal (like the US), where strictly religious or conservative parents pull their kids from school because they’re learning about gender identity and receive sex education.
Personally I think we need to do more to push back against conservatism, not less.
Something we agree on for once. I’m not religious and I hate to see religion being pushed on to kids.
However, I’m a all a strong believer in democracy and the freedoms it gives us. That dies mean though, that we have responsibilities as well. You can’t pick and chose when to apply the rules we set up for a better world and when not to.
The EU has committed itself to the “EU Guidelines on the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief” and we can’t throw that out of the window, because we don’t like how Muslim people dress.
I don’t know if you can just pull out your kids from school in France. Where I live all kids have to go to school, without exception. The police will literally come and bring them to school if the parents try to keep them home. If you don’t make sure your kids go to school you will even loose custody.
It has nothing to do with not liking how Muslims dress. I think where we actually disagree on is where on the scale of fucked up we put the whole “women and girls need to cover themselves”.
I don’t agree at all that it’s just a dress or just a headscarf. It’s a symbol of sexist oppression. And a strong one at that. Allowing parents to make their kids follow that rule is a disgrace in my eyes. It’s bowing to extreme sexism and conservatism because you are scared the parents will be mad.
No, we need to put our foot down on this. This practice shouldn’t take hold in a country which calls itself caring for the freedom of it’s people, children in particular. In my eyes we are backstabbing these kids. They could have been free from what their parents impose upon them. But we decided to let them down.
People in Germany have trouble to “bond” though. Unless you want to ignore the multitude of troubles some immigrants (even second and third generation) face here. To deny these also have to do with religious conservatism isn’t helpful.
That some of the children here are still forced into religion, sometimes living in a basically parallel society, is a problem that shouldn’t simply be brushed aside.
Im not denying that there are problems with integration. I’m not denying that some kids are forced into religion.
I’m saying that taking away the liberty to express your religion, won’t change anything about that. All it does is appease people who are offended or threatened by religion (Islamophobia, anti semitism etc.).
A kid that is forced into religion won’t become an atheist if it can’t wear a headdress or a cross chain in school.
I think it does help people become more free from religious oppression.
Please try to imagine you are brought up with the rule you have to cover your whole body with a veil all the time you leave your home. Especially if you are brought up to do that since you are a child. It’s a powerful tool to keep control over someone with a relative simple thing. It’s not just a necklace or some other small thing.
I can imagine that just fine and it’s horrible. I love in a country with a fuck ton of Muslim immigrants and I’m sure a lot of their children would prefer not to have to cover their hair (that’s what we’re talking about, not a burka as you describe it).
Yes it’s a powerful tool to keep kids under the influence of their parents religion. But taking away the symbols of that religion won’t make the kids atheist or magically take them out of the influence of their families. If you think that parents who enforce the strict rules of their religion because the kid can’t wear certain clothing at school, you are Truely delusional. Best case the lod doesn’t wear it in school, but still has to do so every other minute in their life. Worst case the parents pull their kids out of school, because the school threatens their influence. A lot of those kids are going to end up home schooled by their radical families or simply go to a private school, where such rules don’t exist. Neither is going to help the kid.
The abaya isn’t just a headscarf, though. It only leaves the face uncovered and I have seen kids who also additionally cover parts of their face with it.
I am not sure of the details in current laws in France, many (most?) countries in Western Europe do not allow homeschooling and private schools have to follow almost all of the same laws as state schools.
Personally I think we need to do more to push back against conservatism, not less.
I just googled it and it’s literally a fucking dress. Sure it’s often combined with a headscarf or (I guess this is what most people have a problem with, a Niqab), but how can you tell women (and often also men) not to wear a dress?
You’re right about the homeschooling (not so much on the private schools, but that’s not really relevant to the point), but that doesn’t stop religious radicals to pull their kids from schools so they can better indoctrinate the kids themselves. This was a common problem during the pandemic, where parents who didn’t agree with the state policies pulled their kids from school and it’s a common problem in counties where homeschooling is legal (like the US), where strictly religious or conservative parents pull their kids from school because they’re learning about gender identity and receive sex education.
Something we agree on for once. I’m not religious and I hate to see religion being pushed on to kids. However, I’m a all a strong believer in democracy and the freedoms it gives us. That dies mean though, that we have responsibilities as well. You can’t pick and chose when to apply the rules we set up for a better world and when not to. The EU has committed itself to the “EU Guidelines on the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief” and we can’t throw that out of the window, because we don’t like how Muslim people dress.
I don’t know if you can just pull out your kids from school in France. Where I live all kids have to go to school, without exception. The police will literally come and bring them to school if the parents try to keep them home. If you don’t make sure your kids go to school you will even loose custody.
It has nothing to do with not liking how Muslims dress. I think where we actually disagree on is where on the scale of fucked up we put the whole “women and girls need to cover themselves”.
I don’t agree at all that it’s just a dress or just a headscarf. It’s a symbol of sexist oppression. And a strong one at that. Allowing parents to make their kids follow that rule is a disgrace in my eyes. It’s bowing to extreme sexism and conservatism because you are scared the parents will be mad.
No, we need to put our foot down on this. This practice shouldn’t take hold in a country which calls itself caring for the freedom of it’s people, children in particular. In my eyes we are backstabbing these kids. They could have been free from what their parents impose upon them. But we decided to let them down.