Could you please provide those stats? Skimming thru the Wikipedia article on pit bulls, it seems there’s no clear evidence that pit bulls are significantly more dangerous that other dog breeds of similar size.
You mean these stats from a 32 your study of US and Canada from 1982 to 2009 that shows over 60% of dog attacks from from pitbulls?
Here’s a collections of yearly reported dog attacks.
LMFAO, alright reading this thread again… the person gave up talking to you because you cited sources. And here I was about to dig through my reddit posts to grab my copy-pasta… They won’t respond to you, so I assume they wont to me… So no point in putting the work in if they’re arguing in such bad faith.
I am surprised the first response I got was not an attack. The pro pit propaganda runs hard and encouraged pretty rabbid harassment. I don’t blame people that don’t know for defending pits. It’s the ones that argue in bad faith and ignore obvious data that are the problem. There’s a reason why pits, and only pits, need to be defended so aggressively. All it takes is just googling reports of actual dog attacks to see almost all of the reports involved a pit or pit mix. Hell all you have to do is Google pictures of pitbulls vs porcupines and then compare those to literally any other dog breed vs porcupines. Normal dogs take a hit and get deterred out of their natural survival and pain avoidance instincts. Pits just maul them harder till they all but kill themselves. That’s what happens when you breed some poor animal to fight to the death against other animals. It’s tragic what we have bred into these dogs and even more tragic that instead of taking responsibility for it and at least attempting to breed it out and/or restrict breeding, we double down and make more and more lies about them that get innocent people maimed and killed. Then when people try to point all this out they get harassed to no end.
You’re preaching to the choir. I still visit reddit without logging in sometimes to visit /r/banpitbulls specifically just to see the monthly tallies… It’s sad that hundreds of people can have their lives changed every month… But nah, velvet hippo (completely missing the fact that hippos are STUPID dangerous… like I’ll take my chances with any snake/spider/etc…).
Also another fact that gets brought up is that chihuahuas and pomeranians bite more often!.. Right… and maybe drew blood on accident? Pitbulls just rip your hand off… then go for your neck. If that’s the defense… it’s a terrible one… and they never admit it.
You mean those weird ass stats where they even agree that evidence is based off of looking at a picture where they admit they barely know it half the time?
That’s like saying driving a sports car is more dangerous than a regular car. In some sense, yes it is, but at the same time it’s not the cars fault that the driver irresponsible.
Where is all this pit bull hate coming from? They’re not anymore dangerous to people than other breeds of similar size, yet they get such a disproportionate amount of blame. I’m not sure why.
Since 2016, at least 65 different breeds and mixed breeds have been involved in fatal dog attacks in the U.S. including: Akita, Boxer, Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Great Dane, Husky, Labrador Retriever, Mastiff, Pitbull-Type, Rottweiler, and many others.
The risk of being fatally attacked by a dog (of any breed) given an average of 33 fatal attacks every year in the U.S. and a population of 330,000,000. According to CDC data, fatal dog attacks are exceedingly rare - lightning strikes cause more fatalities (~36/year) than dogs.
Yay strawman! I state the above… And then you focus on only one thing! Go argue somewhere else moron. Congrats on ONLY caring about dead people… And not the ones that were maimed/severely hurt.
In 2020, Pit Bulls caused 33 deaths of adults aged over 20 years. (Pawsome Advice)
So is it 33 deaths total per year for all dogs and pitbulls do 3 of those 33? or 33 attributed to pit bulls period… and there’s only a handful additional deaths per year?
Oh wait, they answer my question too!
14 Pit Bulls caused 22 of 28 adult deaths (79%) and 16 (57%) people killed were females. (Dog Bite Law)
So ~80% of dog fatalities dealing with adults humans were pitbulls… Sounds a bit lopsided since 80% of all dogs in the USA aren’t pitbulls now… doesn’t it?
No, it’s like saying garbage trucks haul more garbage than normal vehicles. Because while people may transport trash in their vehicles, dump trucks were created for the specific purpose of hauling trash.
No they aren’t. They’re only a problem when not raised right. They DO need a firmer hand in training like literally every strong breed, which not all owners realise and take into account, but neglecting that isn’t their fault, it’s on the bad owners.
You pointed out the solution: nobody should be allowed to keeep a dog unless they can prove they know how to correctly train and keep a dog. If the owners are the problem, the owners should be held accountable.
Well, as long as we cannot be sure whether a dog owner has done their duty and properly trained the dog, we can never be sure whether a stranger’s dog is well trained or a purpously-trained killing machine. Or anything in between.
Come to think about that: to operate a car, motorcycle, boat or aeroplane you need to get a license, proving that you know what you are doing. Depending on vehicle and jurisdiction, you might even need to re-take tests frequently. All of these vehicles (in most jurisdictions) require frequent inspections and if they fail these inspections, you are no longer allowed to operate them.
Also, there are very stringent laws on how you are allowed to operate these vehicles, with really harsh fines for violations of these laws.
Looks like your stance on dog ownership is much more hardcore than mine, but I could get behind that.
Were you personally attacked by a pit bull, or was someone who’s close to you attacked? Your stance comes across as really paranoid, like you have a reason to fear dogs.
I was attacked multiple times by dogs and I don’t care what race they are. All dogs in public should be on a leash and muzzled.
And every time I was attacked I was just walking down the road and some random dog without leash or muzzle just attacked and bit me. And every time the owner was like “The dog has never done anything like that”. That totally makes everything better. I always felt so honored that I was the first one that dog hurt. I still got scars on my shoulder from that one time and that was almost 20 years ago.
I don’t think breed-based laws are a good idea, because they make it look like every other breed is not dangerous.
I think, all dogs should be leashed and muzzled in public and all owners should have to get a license that includes a test and yearly inspections first.
That’s extremely unfortunate. Of the many many dogs I’ve come across, big & small, including a few strays that I was unwise to approach so casually, I’ve never been bitten or attacked. Perhaps I was merely fortunate. Knowing what you’ve gone through, your stance is understandable, although I don’t entirely agree with it. Yes, all dogs in public should be leashed, although I find it unnecessary to put a muzzle on all but the largest dogs who have the actual strength to cause serious harm. I definitely don’t agree with any sort of licensing or routine inspection for dog owners, but I get why you would think this is necessary… perhaps its best if we simply agree to disagree.
The issue is that for every good dog owner who trains their dog, puts it on a leash in public, picks up the dog shit and makes sure their dog can’t cause trouble, there is also some idiot who got a dog on a whim, mistreats it and doesn’t train it at all.
And most often the people who don’t care for training their dog are also the people who don’t care to secure the dog in public places.
I know that’s a generalisation and there probably are some counter examples. But a “don’t care” attitude generally runs through everything a person does.
And having a dog is a multiplier of what trouble that “don’t care” attitude can cause.
That’s why I am for licensing/inspections. For someone who does care it probably won’t change much. They already go to a training course with their dog. Just give them a license for completing the training/make that training mandatory if you don’t want to call it a license.
Any reasonable dog owner will be at vet in regular intervals anyway. Just let the vet not only check whether the dog is physically fit, but also if it obeys it’s owner and if it shows signs of abuse. And make that checkup mandatory. It’s better for the dogs anyway if they get their health checked regularly.
I see why you think it’s not necessary, because you might be the kind of dog owner who cares and then it’s just additional hassle. But, as I said, there are many who don’t care, even if in your bubble (and I don’t mean this word negatively) everyone cares for their dogs.
Man, I have to wonder, what are your thoughts on gun control? I mean the yearly dog inspector is great but like, what about social services? You think there is room in the budget to provide care for the less fortunate?
Social services don’t pay for your dog’s vet. Why should it pay for other dog expenses?
Regarding gun control, I luckily live in a country with decent gun control laws. So our death rate due to gun violence in peace time doesn’t resemble the civilian casulty rate in some war zones.
Cesar Milan is considered a hack by almost every reputable dog trainer, and his methods conflict with every modern study I have seen on how to effectively train a dog.
I mean, you can Google it and find countless sources, if you really care they are readily available within seconds.
The Tl;dr is that his methods are based in dominance theory. Dominance theory has been widely debunked and the methods that arose from it are widely considered to exacerbate fear and aggression related issues in dogs. Caesar’s celebrity status has contributed to its persistence in the popular imagination.
The discussion is literally that there are bad owners and those owners are solely responsible for the pit bulls reputation. I’m proving that wrong by showing an “expert” in the field… If an expert in the field cannot do it… Then why would a lay person be able to?
This isn’t argument from authority. You just like screaming random shit to shut down discussions because you don’t have any better evidence against the argument.
How does that say anything about pit bulls in general? Someone else brought up the fact that labs and German shepherds bite just as much as pit bulls. Where’s the scaremongering about labs? Oh wait, they’re the choice breed for service dogs? Maybe it’s not the breed then.
I’m directly refuting the point that Pit Bulls are not bad, just their owners are. I don’t give a shit about German Shepherds because there’s isn’t a disproportionate amount of them causing harm to humans.
Yes… they’re number 2 and 3… Except between position 1 and 2 is literally a 20x difference. If #1 is held by pitbulls by such an astounding lead that they 20x ahead of #2… You don’t look at #2 and #3 as contenders.
I didn’t believe it at first, but it seems my doubt was misplaced.
You would think that a supposed professional dog trainer, who allegedly was aware that his dog was aggressive and had a history of biting other dogs, wouldn’t just let such a dog wander around unattended. I guess he was too proud to admit he couldn’t correct this dog’s behavior.
They are tho. Look at stats.
Could you please provide those stats? Skimming thru the Wikipedia article on pit bulls, it seems there’s no clear evidence that pit bulls are significantly more dangerous that other dog breeds of similar size.
https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/2009-dog-attack-deaths-maminings-merritt-clifton.pdf
You mean these stats from a 32 your study of US and Canada from 1982 to 2009 that shows over 60% of dog attacks from from pitbulls? Here’s a collections of yearly reported dog attacks.
https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities.php
Here’s a few studies on the medical significance of dog bites and breed.
https://www.nationalpitbullvictimawareness.org/articles/medical-studies-on-pit-bulls/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34100808/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51034290_Mortality_Mauling_and_Maiming_by_Vicious_Dogs
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261032/
https://www.plasticsurgery.org/news/press-releases/complex-dog-bites-in-children-experience-and-recommended-treatment
And how about breed specific behavior studies?
https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-016-2936-3
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/509315v1
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233995885_Breed_differences_in_canine_aggression
These are just a few of dozens of studies and reports that have been done on dogs attacks and biology.
The Fifth Estate also has a good video with proponents of both sides. https://youtu.be/iFa8HOdegZA
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/iFa8HOdegZA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
LMFAO, alright reading this thread again… the person gave up talking to you because you cited sources. And here I was about to dig through my reddit posts to grab my copy-pasta… They won’t respond to you, so I assume they wont to me… So no point in putting the work in if they’re arguing in such bad faith.
Thanks for the logical and well-sourced post!
I am surprised the first response I got was not an attack. The pro pit propaganda runs hard and encouraged pretty rabbid harassment. I don’t blame people that don’t know for defending pits. It’s the ones that argue in bad faith and ignore obvious data that are the problem. There’s a reason why pits, and only pits, need to be defended so aggressively. All it takes is just googling reports of actual dog attacks to see almost all of the reports involved a pit or pit mix. Hell all you have to do is Google pictures of pitbulls vs porcupines and then compare those to literally any other dog breed vs porcupines. Normal dogs take a hit and get deterred out of their natural survival and pain avoidance instincts. Pits just maul them harder till they all but kill themselves. That’s what happens when you breed some poor animal to fight to the death against other animals. It’s tragic what we have bred into these dogs and even more tragic that instead of taking responsibility for it and at least attempting to breed it out and/or restrict breeding, we double down and make more and more lies about them that get innocent people maimed and killed. Then when people try to point all this out they get harassed to no end.
You’re preaching to the choir. I still visit reddit without logging in sometimes to visit /r/banpitbulls specifically just to see the monthly tallies… It’s sad that hundreds of people can have their lives changed every month… But nah, velvet hippo (completely missing the fact that hippos are STUPID dangerous… like I’ll take my chances with any snake/spider/etc…).
Also another fact that gets brought up is that chihuahuas and pomeranians bite more often!.. Right… and maybe drew blood on accident? Pitbulls just rip your hand off… then go for your neck. If that’s the defense… it’s a terrible one… and they never admit it.
Don’t use Wikipedia as your source, that’s rule number one. Look at the cdc
You mean those weird ass stats where they even agree that evidence is based off of looking at a picture where they admit they barely know it half the time?
Those statistics?
Why is it controversial to point out that pitbulls bite more because they were bred for it?
My Australian shepherd herds things, never taught them that. Retrievers retrieve things. Pitbulls maul things. That’s what they were all bred for.
Now if you really want to do some research look up how much money is spent on pro - Pitbull lobbying and misinformation
But its not a crab, how can it be good if at anything if no crabiness?
That’s like saying driving a sports car is more dangerous than a regular car. In some sense, yes it is, but at the same time it’s not the cars fault that the driver irresponsible.
This is only a valid comparison of the sports car could break out of the garage and hunt people down on its own will.
BMW’s can
Don’t give them ideas!
Actually thinking about it they might have a valid point… tesla FSD and all being what it is.
Is that common in your country? I can’t remember last time I heard about a dog attack here
Over here yes. Happens quite often. Mostly when unsupervised children meet unsupervised dogs.
Does your country have pit bulls?
Where is all this pit bull hate coming from? They’re not anymore dangerous to people than other breeds of similar size, yet they get such a disproportionate amount of blame. I’m not sure why.
Statistics… you can look up bite/ attack/ fatality statistics and pit bulls dominate the leaderboards.
https://www.fataldogattacks.org/
So even if pit bulls are the “dominant” killers, it’s the “dominant” one out of 33 deaths. Which could be 3.
Yay strawman! I state the above… And then you focus on only one thing! Go argue somewhere else moron. Congrats on ONLY caring about dead people… And not the ones that were maimed/severely hurt.
It’s funny because pulling from another source that’s PRO pitbull… https://thepitbullcenter.com/pitbull-attack-statistics/
So is it 33 deaths total per year for all dogs and pitbulls do 3 of those 33? or 33 attributed to pit bulls period… and there’s only a handful additional deaths per year?
Oh wait, they answer my question too!
So ~80% of dog fatalities dealing with adults humans were pitbulls… Sounds a bit lopsided since 80% of all dogs in the USA aren’t pitbulls now… doesn’t it?
No, it’s like saying garbage trucks haul more garbage than normal vehicles. Because while people may transport trash in their vehicles, dump trucks were created for the specific purpose of hauling trash.
No they aren’t. They’re only a problem when not raised right. They DO need a firmer hand in training like literally every strong breed, which not all owners realise and take into account, but neglecting that isn’t their fault, it’s on the bad owners.
You pointed out the solution: nobody should be allowed to keeep a dog unless they can prove they know how to correctly train and keep a dog. If the owners are the problem, the owners should be held accountable.
I completely agree. Can we stop with the rampant defamation of usually sweet dogs, then?
Well, as long as we cannot be sure whether a dog owner has done their duty and properly trained the dog, we can never be sure whether a stranger’s dog is well trained or a purpously-trained killing machine. Or anything in between.
By that logic, we should ban cars, motorcycles, boats, aeroplanes, horses and almost all other dogs
Good luck with that…
deleted by creator
Come to think about that: to operate a car, motorcycle, boat or aeroplane you need to get a license, proving that you know what you are doing. Depending on vehicle and jurisdiction, you might even need to re-take tests frequently. All of these vehicles (in most jurisdictions) require frequent inspections and if they fail these inspections, you are no longer allowed to operate them.
Also, there are very stringent laws on how you are allowed to operate these vehicles, with really harsh fines for violations of these laws.
Looks like your stance on dog ownership is much more hardcore than mine, but I could get behind that.
You have to license dogs too. In both cases, a license does not mean safety.
Getting a license in america is not hard or stringent at all lmao.
Another issue that should be taken care of. But have you tried getting an aircraft license?
Were you personally attacked by a pit bull, or was someone who’s close to you attacked? Your stance comes across as really paranoid, like you have a reason to fear dogs.
I was attacked multiple times by dogs and I don’t care what race they are. All dogs in public should be on a leash and muzzled.
And every time I was attacked I was just walking down the road and some random dog without leash or muzzle just attacked and bit me. And every time the owner was like “The dog has never done anything like that”. That totally makes everything better. I always felt so honored that I was the first one that dog hurt. I still got scars on my shoulder from that one time and that was almost 20 years ago.
I don’t think breed-based laws are a good idea, because they make it look like every other breed is not dangerous.
I think, all dogs should be leashed and muzzled in public and all owners should have to get a license that includes a test and yearly inspections first.
That’s extremely unfortunate. Of the many many dogs I’ve come across, big & small, including a few strays that I was unwise to approach so casually, I’ve never been bitten or attacked. Perhaps I was merely fortunate. Knowing what you’ve gone through, your stance is understandable, although I don’t entirely agree with it. Yes, all dogs in public should be leashed, although I find it unnecessary to put a muzzle on all but the largest dogs who have the actual strength to cause serious harm. I definitely don’t agree with any sort of licensing or routine inspection for dog owners, but I get why you would think this is necessary… perhaps its best if we simply agree to disagree.
The issue is that for every good dog owner who trains their dog, puts it on a leash in public, picks up the dog shit and makes sure their dog can’t cause trouble, there is also some idiot who got a dog on a whim, mistreats it and doesn’t train it at all.
And most often the people who don’t care for training their dog are also the people who don’t care to secure the dog in public places.
I know that’s a generalisation and there probably are some counter examples. But a “don’t care” attitude generally runs through everything a person does.
And having a dog is a multiplier of what trouble that “don’t care” attitude can cause.
That’s why I am for licensing/inspections. For someone who does care it probably won’t change much. They already go to a training course with their dog. Just give them a license for completing the training/make that training mandatory if you don’t want to call it a license.
Any reasonable dog owner will be at vet in regular intervals anyway. Just let the vet not only check whether the dog is physically fit, but also if it obeys it’s owner and if it shows signs of abuse. And make that checkup mandatory. It’s better for the dogs anyway if they get their health checked regularly.
I see why you think it’s not necessary, because you might be the kind of dog owner who cares and then it’s just additional hassle. But, as I said, there are many who don’t care, even if in your bubble (and I don’t mean this word negatively) everyone cares for their dogs.
Man, I have to wonder, what are your thoughts on gun control? I mean the yearly dog inspector is great but like, what about social services? You think there is room in the budget to provide care for the less fortunate?
Social services don’t pay for your dog’s vet. Why should it pay for other dog expenses?
Regarding gun control, I luckily live in a country with decent gun control laws. So our death rate due to gun violence in peace time doesn’t resemble the civilian casulty rate in some war zones.
https://www.tmz.com/2021/09/10/cesar-milan-queen-latifah-pit-bull-dog-junior-coverup-lawsuit/
So then when one of the premier dog trainers in the USA runs into significant issues with their pit bull… is it the dog or the owner?
Cesar Milan is considered a hack by almost every reputable dog trainer, and his methods conflict with every modern study I have seen on how to effectively train a dog.
Source? Citation? Anything?
I mean, you can Google it and find countless sources, if you really care they are readily available within seconds.
The Tl;dr is that his methods are based in dominance theory. Dominance theory has been widely debunked and the methods that arose from it are widely considered to exacerbate fear and aggression related issues in dogs. Caesar’s celebrity status has contributed to its persistence in the popular imagination.
It’s Cesar Milan being a fraud who doesn’t practice what he preaches.
Ah yes… the person with more than 25 years of experience must be wrong! Ya’ll are a trip.
Did you even read the article? He left a poorly socialised dog untethered and unattended.
That would stil be extremely irresponsible dog ownership if he had been the undisputed king of dog trainers for 800 years.
Thus why the source should be questioned… it’s TMZ, all trashy celebrity gossip. I doubt this incident even happened.
There are doctors with 25 years of experience that still fuck up constantly and get away with it.
Argument from authority is a fallacy for a reason.
The discussion is literally that there are bad owners and those owners are solely responsible for the pit bulls reputation. I’m proving that wrong by showing an “expert” in the field… If an expert in the field cannot do it… Then why would a lay person be able to?
This isn’t argument from authority. You just like screaming random shit to shut down discussions because you don’t have any better evidence against the argument.
You’re citing a tabloid, not exactly a reliable source…
So you believe that cesar milan didn’t have a pit bull and it didn’t bite someone and didn’t kill another dog?
You can literally pull up the court records if you want. Other sources can cover it perfectly fine.
https://www.citywatchla.com/animal-watch/22536-lawsuit-cesar-millan-s-pit-bull-kills-queen-latifah-s-dog-in-training-and-mauls-girl
https://www.nydailynews.com/2021/09/10/cesar-millans-pit-bull-killed-queen-latifahs-dog-attacked-star-gymnast-lawsuit-claims/
https://www.businessinsider.com/cesar-millan-covering-up-dogs-attack-on-queen-latifahs-dog-2021-9
What a weird hill to die on.
How does that say anything about pit bulls in general? Someone else brought up the fact that labs and German shepherds bite just as much as pit bulls. Where’s the scaremongering about labs? Oh wait, they’re the choice breed for service dogs? Maybe it’s not the breed then.
I’m directly refuting the point that Pit Bulls are not bad, just their owners are. I don’t give a shit about German Shepherds because there’s isn’t a disproportionate amount of them causing harm to humans.
Numbers say otherwise. Rottweilers and German Shepherds are after Pit Bulls.
Yes… they’re number 2 and 3… Except between position 1 and 2 is literally a 20x difference. If #1 is held by pitbulls by such an astounding lead that they 20x ahead of #2… You don’t look at #2 and #3 as contenders.
I didn’t believe it at first, but it seems my doubt was misplaced.
You would think that a supposed professional dog trainer, who allegedly was aware that his dog was aggressive and had a history of biting other dogs, wouldn’t just let such a dog wander around unattended. I guess he was too proud to admit he couldn’t correct this dog’s behavior.
Since it was settled out of court there is zero truth to any of it. Not saying it didn’t happen, but there is no proof that it happened either.
There’s plenty of proof. Documents were submitted to court. Just because there was a settlement doesn’t mean it didn’t happen