I’m for Palestine and their right to self defense and have their land back from Israeli robbers, but:
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Before they were fighting to have their land back. Now they have to fight not to be genocided
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On past conflicts, they always lost much more than Israel
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Israel is military much more powerful
How can Hamas have thought that the situation would improve, even if Palestinians deserve freedom?
I’m coming to the sad conclusion that indeed Palestine will disappear, like the indigenous people disappeared in the US.
If they are lucky they will preserve they culture like the Jews did after being kicked out by Rome, and will come back 2000 years later, when they have more technology.
Is this a recurring pattern of people/cultures living in this region? I know of curds and other people who seem to suffer as well from a similar fate.
It was pretty clear that Palestine was going to disappear if the course of history didn’t change, and arguably is already gone. One can see that there’s simply no viable state of Palestine left—just fragments of land surrounded and controlled by an apartheid regime—by looking at the map.
If one were charitable, one could say that Hamas took an accelerationist approach as a hail Mary attempt to fight it. Or, as I think, they’ve gone down the path that so many radical groups in history have: Deciding that achieving their goal is worth sacrificing the people they originally set out to save, possibly even holding those people in contempt for not joining the noble struggle.
In any case, the only motive for the October 7th attack that sense to me is that Hamas wanted to provoke Israel into an all-too-predictable overreaction, to draw in the West Bank and other Arab powers, to de-legitimize Israel on the world stage, or both. Months later, we can see that it’s not not working. They are closer to diplomatic recognition of a Palestinian state by a number of nations than they have been at any point in decades.
At what a terrible price, though.
Good Analysis.
I read about the Jewish roman war in 70 BCE, and when the city of Masada was about to be entirely killed, all jewish there (around 1.5 MILLION people) just committed suicide.
Maybe yes, instead of commiting suicide you can have your last “desperate attempt”, not to die passively.
I read about the Jewish roman war in 70 BCE, and when the city of Masada was about to be entirely killed, all jewish there (around 1.5 MILLION people) just committed suicide.
I should tell you that is disputed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Masada#Historical_interpretations
Josephus, like many writers of his day, favored a good story over a true story.
I also find weird that so much people just suicide.
Thanks for the info
The guerilla wins if it does not lose. After 6 months of Genocide israel still isn’t even close to wiping Hamas. International opinion has completely shifted on israel showing the world what the Palestinians have actually been suffering from for over 75 years. Hamas is now growing in the West Bank and Lebanon, they are bigger than ever and israel is losing allies by the day because everyone realizes they are Nazis. Hamas has won in every single way.
The only way one can pretend Hamas is losing is by saying that Hamas is responsible for all the innocent civilians that israel is brutally massacaring. But Hamas is as responsible for that as the Jews which families were slaughtered when they fought back against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto.
Ok, but see I’m not worried about Hamas, I’m worried about the rest of the population who is being slaughtered.
Are their better off after the 7th, or they are worse but accept is better than dying passively? From their point or view, how do they feel about what will happen?
I have a friend in Gaza and she’s really suffering. I don’t ask her too much because I don’t want to make her thing of the tragedy.
A lot of people got killed by the Apartheid in South Africa during the armed resistance. A lot of people died fighting against the Nazis… Your friend was suffering far before this mass Genocide started.
Every day israel does not defeat Hamas but massacres innocent civilians trying to collect food they lose more reputation on the global stage. Israel went from nobody knowing how bad they were to being seen as Nazis in six months. 100 years of carefully crafted Zionist propaganda completely destroyed because they have gotten too arrogant and open about their crimes believing themselves invincible.
Gaza went from having absolutely no chance of a future for Palestine because of the Abraham accords to having Spain and other countris now trying to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state.
Given that:
a) Israel is military much more powerful than Palestine b) Israel has US cover
Do you think that
a) Hamas was aware of was coming to them after the 7th October, or did they underestimate it?
b) was the Palestinian people aware of what would follow, and did they accept to “pay for it”?
Sorry if my wording makes it seem too cold, or pro Hamas or anti Palestinian or whatever. I just cannot find a better wording
Nobody is exactly aware of what will result from their actions, I think the absolute best-case scenario for Palestine as a result of this post-October 7th escalation is that American youth gain a vastly increased awareness of the horrors of the Palestinian genocide.
This seems to actually have happened. American congress people are super worried about the anti-Israel sentiment rising in youth, and this is a major factor, if not the sole factor, driving the tiktok ban/forced sale attempts.
If anti-Israel sentiment stays strong for say 1-2 more decades while boomers continue to die off, America could very easily turn anti-Israel, and vote in line with Palestine and the rest of the world on widely agreed upon 2 state solutions.
Wow. Are you really comparing Hamas, who want to eradicate all Jews, to the people who opposed being slaughtered by the Nazis?!
If you want to support Palestinians, say that. But Hamas and Palestinians are NOT the same.
This is a recurring pattern in oppressed people. The same thing happened in Ireland, South Africa, and a bunch of Colonies. It’s not at all uncommon to find an idea that each generation has to sacrifice in resistance ideology.
Hamas doesn’t give two shits about Palestinian people. They like to kick hornets nest from time to time so people get harshly punished. This produces loads of media attention which begets more humanitarian aid which never ends up in hands of those who need it, instead it goes straight to Qatar.
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I mean that’s obviously the plan, look at em go
Another day
Palestine has the right to exist.
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So it didn’t quite work out how the fascist sharia rape gang of Hamas wanted, who would have thought?! Now let’s hope for a quick end to all violence in the entire region and that the fuckhead Netanyahu gets what he deserves as well.
You seem quite gleeful for a war that has already murdered well over 10,000 children in the past six months.
People against Hamas are not gleeful about the situation.
Why even say something so stupid?
You must’ve missed all the videos of the IDF gleefully destroying civilian houses and the israeli developers gleefully laying out their plans for the new beach front property. Maybe you’re technically right since they were being gleeful against the Palestinian people and not hamas.
I am not sure if I have seen a single pro-IDF or Netanyahu regime account here.
This isn’t r/worldnews.
“People against Hamas” indicates people in general, not restricted to a particular online space. That is what I was responding to.
Well… I read the gleeful post they wrote.
Weird, I don’t take it as gleeful?
It’s got a tone of “O RLY?” Because hamas bit off more than they could chew.
No one’s happy.
Personal attacks are against rule 5. I am not going to delete your comment because you made it in reply to me, but please do not do so again to me or anyone else in this community. Thank you.
Fair enough, no problem.
What came off as gleeful to you?
So it didn’t quite work out how the fascist sharia rape gang of Hamas wanted, who would have thought?!
Oh, that.
You aren’t also happy that things have fallen apart for Hamas?
You’re happy that a point was made through THOUSANDS of deaths and the eradication of a people?
Aren’t you supposed to ask me if I’ve stopped beating my wife yet?
For those that don’t know, FlyingSquid is a mod who roams around various news communities antogonizing anyone who doesn’t toe his anti-Israel line, and then flaunts his mod status when someone gets upset. He’s like one of those Reddit power mods that everyone complains about.
Oh yeah, and I noticed the other day that people are getting their comments removed for “genocide denial” if they don’t line up to pre-judge the outcome of the genocide case South Africa brought against Israel. Apparently, a few mods think they are qualified to judge the outcome of the case without being, you know, actual judges qualified in the laws of war. This kind of antagonistic mod behavior is making some communities into Reddit 2.0.
FlyingSquid, wake up man. You are abusing the tiny amount of power you have to make Lemmy into an echo chamber. You oppose what’s happening in Gaza. We get it already. You don’t have to constantly roam around antagonizing people who disagree with you.
So…you’re mad that he’s participating in the communities that he mods?
I wondered who it was, but then I saw I have FS blocked and just see the word “filtered” instead of amy comment. Think I made the right choice at some point then.
and then flaunts his mod status when someone gets upset.
And yet you’re upset…
Oh yeah, and I noticed the other day that people are getting their comments removed for “genocide denial” if they don’t line up to pre-judge the outcome of the genocide case South Africa brought against Israel.
You seem to be implying I’m doing that, when I’ve done nothing of the sort.
You are abusing the tiny amount of power you have to make Lemmy into an echo chamber.
And yet you’re still here.
You don’t have to constantly roam around antagonizing people who disagree with you.
Aren’t you the one doing the antagonizing?
Case in point. Wake up man. You are making the place worse, not better.
I’m pretty sure I’m not making your case since you’re the one antagonizing me and I’m not doing anything about it.
Check out your own comment count. You aren’t moderating the conversation, you are dominating it. You are everywhere and you are relentless, and you apparently lack the self-awareness necessary to recognize it and moderate your activity.
I unsubscribed from a couple of communities because of you.
Interesting.
I actually already have this character as a possible sock puppet account of a user named Core.
Yep, that’s me. Core’s sockpuppet.
Also, who’s Core?
Core is a .ml account who was spending 8-10 hours a day bullying people because they were anti-Hamas.
I assume you got added to the list of his sock accounts because you responded to me previously when he was using multiple accounts to flood my inbox.
I think you can see very clearly that I am not bullying anyone.
That seems more of a conspiracy theory. I have been on Lemmy for nearly a year (since the reddit API fiasco) and have never heard of Core either.
Odd, how you and @[email protected] work together to bother a mod by making up weird theories of creating an echo chamber as your posts ARE NOT deleted and have the nerve to call that person a bully.
You accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist and then immediately go onto say I am part of a network of users attempting to bring down the moderators.
Are you being ironic?
A network of 2 is still a network.
Whatever side you’re on, it cannot be denied that this invasion was triggered by Hamas on Oct 7. The same person you are accusing as being “gleeful” is calling for an end to all violence in the exact same post. It’s ok to criticize Hamas.
This is something I don’t understand on this community: Any time the slightest criticism is leveraged towards Hamas it is given the least charitable interpretation or reading. There is no counter to the claim, just tone policing of some sort.
On the other hand, we can say whatever the f**k we want about the great oppressor, Israel. Which by the way, don’t get me wrong: the IDF are horrible blood thirsty opportunists milking the Oct 7 attack in order to inflict maximum damage in Gaza. But if we continue to be charitable towards Hamas in perpetuity we are throwing the Palestinian people under. They cannot rely on Hamas to get them out of this. The violence has to end and we need to stop Israel at all costs from continuing this occupation.
History didn’t start on October 7, the genocide on the Palestinian people has been ongoing for 76 years now. The Hamas attack is a symptom of the effects that colonization, military occupation, apartheid, among others cause. To keep things In perspective, namely there being an oppressor and an oppressed people is not equal to being charitable towards Hamas.
The only way towards freedom of Palestinian people is freedom of any movement that is powered by any imperial force, be that the USA or Russia or China or even regionally Saudi Arabia or Iran (to which I count Hamas).
I don’t think people here are particularly favorable towards Hamas, but it has to be pointed out again and again that the Nakba caused by the Zionists is indeed the source of this conflict, and not any reactionary movement, however shitty they may be.
The only way towards freedom of Palestinian people is freedom of any movement that is powered by any imperial force, be that the USA or Russia or China or even regionally Saudi Arabia or Iran (to which I count Hamas).
by killing innocents?
They themselves said “to which I count Hamas”, this is just bad faith rhetoric on your part.
Pointing out hypocrisy of someone glorifying the slaughter of children isnt rhetoric, its pointing out hypocrisy.
“History didnt start on October 7th” <- What do you think this means? this is in good faith?
Nice try but nobody is buying it.
See, this is what I’m talking about. This is so tone-deaf. I never said we should ignore the historicity of the attack. Or the history of the region. But you still felt compelled to ignore the thesis of the point: The main occupation that is going on now was triggered by Oct 7. If you want to talk about the moral legitimacy of the Oct 7 attack that’s fine too! Let’s talk about that as well. But at least engage with the topic.
But I’m actually responding to what you were saying. I just don’t accept the notion that this whole thing began on October 7. It‘s just another stage of escalation and e.g. violent settler activities, killings and detentions have also skyrocketed in the occupied West Bank where Hamas is largely absent.
I was specifically also responding to the part where you are kind of saying that everyone is okay criticizing „the great oppressor, Israel“ but not Hamas. This whole „the great oppressor“ rhetoric somehow implies that the oppression is actually not so bad, even though you specifically mention the IDF and the occupation. The oppression and genocide has been ongoing even before there was any IDF, let alone Hamas. And in that sense, Israel now seeking to annihilate Palestinians even more aggressively is a product of this decades ongoing radicalization process.
We can then go on how this is supported by Western countries. All of this is rooted in the Nakba that Israel and the west still do not want to take responsibility for. So ending the occupation isn’t enough. Palestinians need to be compensated for the effects of the Nakba if that’s even remotely possible. So what I’m saying is, October 7 is just a continuation of the ignorance towards Palestinian interests and demands for sovereignty.
But the main reasons why I disagreed with your comment are this and the initial comment that you seem to be defending. Condemning Hamas is easy, let me do that right now, they suck, but that’s not a reason to be okay with the top level comment.
Come on, man. Do you think we all woke up on Oct 7 and learned there’s a conflict in the middle east? I’ve lived in Haifa for many years. Does it appear when we talk about Oct 7 escalation that we are disregarding the hundred years of disastrous fighting that preceded it? All I’m saying is let’s give some more charitability to the people we are engaging with. That’s all.
Now we’re getting to the actual issue: You talk about this conflict as if it were some kind of external event like the eruption of a volcano. It’s not disastrous fighting, it’s an ongoing effort to colonize the Palestinians‘ land and eradicate the Palestinian people as a whole, while also appropriating their culture & heritage to give the impression that this whole colonial project is much older than 1948.
That’s my issue with what you’re saying. Being respectful is imperial in discussions, but it’s counterproductive to be charitable towards people who are willfully ignorant about the power dynamics and the roots of this conflict (again, colonialism, nakba).
If we want to talk about actual peace and actually moving on, the discussion has to start there and not with choosing team Israel or team Palestine as if this were a football match.
“Do you condemn Hamas?” is a question designed to evade and defend Israel’s genocide.
https://medium.com/@melaniesusans/the-laziness-of-asking-do-you-condemn-hamas-3b31ac9c4768
Fonz is well fond of consistently trying to ad-hominem and slander users while he goes around defending Genocide and spreading Zionist propaganda.
I am afraid you are currently talking to a bunch of Hasbara alt accounts.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=LrGlRax9AiY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Just like that. This is the prime example: More tone policing. I never asked if anyone here condemns Hamas. I’m merely pointing out that even expressing the slightest frustration about the actions Hamas does towards any peace process is an invitation to be called a) a zionist b) defending Israel’s genocide (I have to preface every post I make with how much I abhor the actions of the IDF but even that doesn’t matter). There is no conversation to be had. I get the impression this is predominantly an echo chamber.
EDIT: I’m going to be banned, aren’t I?
Re this-
EDIT: I’m going to be banned, aren’t I?
Not by me. You haven’t violated any of the community rules. I have no reason to do any sort of moderator action. You are allowed to make criticisms even if I don’t personally consider them to be valid as long as those criticisms do not include personal attacks (or any other rule violations).
Hmm…
A tone argument (also called tone policing) is a type of ad hominem aimed at the tone of an argument instead of its factual or logical content in order to dismiss a person’s argument. Ignoring the truth or falsity of a statement, a tone argument instead focuses on the emotion with which it is expressed. This is a logical fallacy because a person can be angry while still being rational.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing
That sure sounds to me like someone complaining about how this place is an echo chamber.
Maybe tone policing is not the right term. I might be doing a poor job of explaining myself. What I’m saying is no one here really engages with the topics presented because they’re bought in to the epistemic constellation of beliefs they need to have to be part of the lemmy in-group they are part of. Didn’t you yourself react to how “gleefully” OP presented their case? Isn’t that an emotional reaction?
Yes. I have emotions and I react with them, especially when I infer emotion from the person I am talking to. I am not a robot.
As far as some “Lemmy in-group” thing, do you think there are private meetings or something? Everyone here is an individual. If a majority of people disagree with someone, that doesn’t mean they’re part of a club.
Hi, I had a quick look on your other posts and got some insight.
You seem to believe that both sides are equally right and wrong, and want to draw conclusions based on that.
This remembers me of myself some years ago: if I read Palestinian stories, I’d get pro Palestine. If I get the same story from Israeli side, they just changed some propositions ans I’d think they were actually right.
That’s very confusing.
Everything changed when I read this now updated article and saw this video:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoFjbnvkmQ0
Since seeing that I became much more on the Palestinian side.
After having seen both of the material above, how does this change your point of view?
Ps 1: there’s a 3rd documentary which impacted me a lot, but it was after I had already made my mind. Maybe you will find it relevant or not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwy-Rf15UIs
Ps 2: on this topic, some people take sides because, based on what they read, they see one side is suffering injustice or not. Some people on this topic act like soccer team fans and will defend their team even when they are totally wrong. Some people are just parroting Russia/China positions for being communists, or parroting USA/Israel for being anti communists. Know who you are talking to before wasting time with the last 2 types
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=CoFjbnvkmQ0
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=Bwy-Rf15UIs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
