Most downtowns are built for commuters rather than residents. They forced out residents in favor of building higher cost commercial real estate. What residential buildings there is targets only the highest incomes. No surprise they are struggling.
Hear me out, and this might sound crazy: but what if we build walkable, mixed-use neighborhoods with shops, parks, and libraries? That way people will boost local economy instead of getting into car and driving to centralized locations like Walmart or malls?
Then who would we sell gas to?
Sadly this is one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle, even more sadly the rest of it is probably racism
I mean, what kind of healthy life are you trying to live?
You must be talking about that liberal agenda to make communist “15 minute cities!”
But then you will hear many decry the creation of 15 minute cities and they want to force us to never leave the area and take away our cars to control us.
I wish I could end this with /s but I’ve actually seen people post this sadly.
We will reach a point when the “I can’t park anywhere” crowd is outvoted by the I want to walk to run errands crowd.
because I love spending 4 hours in the bus to go to a park for lunch.
The problem is that once again people with genuine concerns get derided and insulted which pushes them deeper into these views - people have a lot of great reasons for not wanting their car taken away and fearing that the rich’s solution to population growth is going to be to force people into prison communities, that’s been a common theme in history - Australia and America only exist as they are because of the clearances, and the North of England owes most it’s population to poors getting tricked into moving to brutally compact works towns and treated like cattle.
Instead of hearing the fears and needs of people they’re just attacked, called stupid and going by most the times I’ve seen it come up flooded by people saying things like ‘cars are bad, it would be better if we got rid of them all’ which is super unhelpful, it’s like calling a movement ‘defund the police’ and having everyone yell about how we should get rid of them all because they’re all bastard’s but not address the actual needs society has for people tasked with stopping crime - why do people supporting sensible and important things have to make their views sound so intensely unpalatable?
We need to address all the great things that cars and suburban living have brought us, and yes I can already hear the comments from people yelling that it’s a literal hellscape and traffic and etc etc etc but what are people who are living lives they enjoy going to say when they hear that? What are people who don’t want to live the small community lifestyle going to say when told it’s the only good way of living? When people who enjoy the benefits of modern logistics get told they’ll just learn to adapt to having less?
The dumbest bit is we could be focusing on positive additions to peoples lives and offering greater efficiency and freedom through the use of modern planning and technology - that’s what the 15 min city idea is actually about (kinda, depending who’s version you look at).
The logistics of a 15 min lifestyle have to exceed in quality of life the current system, and people need to actually agree not just be badgerd into accepting less. I could talk for days about how this can be done, key points include integrated transport networks to facilitate travel and exploration, nationalised version of Amazon and eBay with community shipping, zoning rules based on measured impact rather than use type (e.g. you’re welcome to live in a high noise area or have shops in a low pollution and traffic area if you can accept the limitations), nationalised services for community utilities to avoid corporate monopolies, measures to improve temporary relocation and travel, investment in affordable and efficient multi-transport cargo (rather than a removal van taking your house the whole way you fill a cargo container and have it collected by a lorry to do the first mile journey to a station where it’s loaded onto a train or ship to move to a transport hub then forwarded to the final destination where it’s taken last mile to the new address by a lorry…)
Improving logistics has to come first, the rallying cry can’t be ‘you need this and will have to try and learn to live with it’ it has to be ‘this is how we can live better lives’
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You are right. And that is because any departure from that 15 minute zone by a vehicle is supposed to be billed. And people don’t want to be restricted to move free of charge only within those 15 minutes. Nobody is stupid not to want everything they need on a daily basis within a spiting distance.
We had that. We bulldozed it.
Not today, bill gates!!
That sounds like some of that communist soci-libral nazism to me, for sure for sure /s
My local walkable grocery store is a Safeway. They sell a 3lb pack of ground turkey for $18.
Walmart, target, smart and final, and Lucky’s are all <$12, but I have to drive. And that’s one item. I save hundreds a month in groceries because I have a car and can shop around. I can wait for deals, I can buy in bulk.
The idea of a walkable city is nice, but if you restrict competition, prices skyrocket. And yeah, that Safeway is walkable to an apartment, the only grocery store that is, and they know it. It is infuriating to dismiss practicality for an dream.
Walkable cities and car hate are just another generations NYMBY’s. Those rich enough and finantialy secure to afford premiums that push others out. Meanwhile this transitional uncertainty greatly harms many of us struggling to make ends meet.
I go to Walmart or Target in my car.
Walkable neighbourhoods restrict competition.
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
That’s one thing I won’t understand about this self-reclusive, anti-atomony movement.
Its basic logic. If I have a walkable radius of 1 mile and a drivable radius of 10, I have the accessability of all grocery stores within that area with a greater selection and purchasing power. These apartments I referenced have exactly one store to shop for groceries. The decision is literally A) Do you purchase an overpriced product for convenience or B) spend an extra hour and public transit to hunt a deal.
I mean sometimes I feel like I’m arguing with children still sucking their parents teats; zero experience in real life. Yes, some can make it work. No, it doesn’t work for everyone. Area of accessibility and the competitive choices it allows, are essential to those not as well off.
Must be nice to be rich enough to have a car.
Luckily the stores I can walk to are pretty affordable.
looks like fuckcars is here 🙄 /s (HERE. Pointing out a joke like I’m on reddit for the smoothbrained reactionaries over on fuckcars that need it spelled out for them.)
But I do wish they would focus more on the “building walkable cities and the benefits thereof” and less on “IF YOU OWN A CAR YOU EAT BABIES” bullshit they like over there. Shitposting with a theme, I guess.
EDIT: man even if I make a lighthearted joke about it you little whiny babies downvote me en mass like that shit matters on lemmy because AAARGH CARBRAIN MUST BE NEUTRALLIZED.
Aw, man, two thirds through your comment I upvoted you cuz I felt bad your joke got taken wrong.
But the winge-fest in the edit… Dude sometimes a joke doesn’t land, take the L.
Lol, why. It’s more fun poking the beehive. Especially one as sensitive as they.
Ehh, all you really did was look obnoxious more than anything else. I don’t think you actually managed to upset anyone.
I got 20 downvotes in moments and then what, two? Three? Now the last only gets a couple? Especially when my post history is generally positively received unless I’m talking about them. Ya. I got someone angy and they keep getting all bent out of shape about it. Plus I do attack them a lot. Nah, I quit when they stop being salty lil sallys. That or learn to ignore people who are intentionally antagonistic.
I see only one that is sensitive here, and it is the one adding edits screaming about nobody liking their joke.
We have a dramatic shortage of residential property. We have a dramatic oversupply of commercial property. IF ONLY THERE WAS A SOLUTION
IF ONLY THERE WAS A SOLUTION
Middle managers: I agree. From now on you’ll be required to be in office 4 days a week instead of 2!
Speaking of which:
You can ‘smell history’ in Tampa cigar factory becoming student housing
if only there was a solution that wouldnt immediately destroy billions of dollars in commercial real estate.
you have to remember that office space cant be easily converted into residential space. most standard office floors dont have more than two or maybe 3 restrooms. cant imagine that many people would be willing to share a public bathroom with their neighbors. you also cant just add a bunch of walls to the interior of office buildings (for individual apartments), the existing architecture wont take the strain. apartment buildings that collapse = lawsuits.
you could try to retrofit existing commercial office space into residential space but you will fail.
You may be correct but we need to think of solutions. Not just rely on conventional wisdom thats says it’s not possible by current standards
Buildings not even built strong enough for multipurpose use. Ahh the “efficiency” of capitalism…
Also, no one said it has to be rennovated to be exactly like normal apartments. Some mixedly shared living spaces exist in some entire cultures for crying out loud.
entire cultures that arent American. if you read the article, you’d note that it’s referring to US cities. non-american cultures arent even part of the conversation.
America is supposed to be a melting pot of different cultures, I think we can make it work and I’m sure those who are unhoused would much rather be able to live in a communal space with a roof and shower than nothing. Fuck corporate real estate profits and let the people live ffs
a certain percentage of the unhoused are in that position because they’re unwilling to follow the societal rules that the rest of us do. the human detritus festering on the streets of the Kensington neighborhood of Philadelphia is a most excellent example of what not to do.
For the millionth time it’s not that simple. Retrofitting commercial buildings is often impossible or more expensive than just demolishing and building new which is also ungodly expensive especially with how high interest rates are right now. Unless cities step in with millions of dollars per project it’s usually not financially possible.
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It’s more than that though, where do you bathe in an office?
I’m not saying it can’t be done, but it’s a lot of work to redo the plumbing, electrical, install kitchens, and seal those spaces into secure private zones with natural light exposure.
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What I hear is mostly water pipes. Commercial buildings have them concentrated in bathrooms and hard to split for each residence.
I know there are bathroom less really cheap places but that attract type of people which property management/urban development corps dont want so they may also be reluctant for that change.
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If the problem is money then there is no problem. It becomes a necessity and you can’t just not afford necessity. We allegedly are the richest country they need to figure it out regardless of cost. That simple.
It’s like climate change, there is no issue with money it just has to get done. Pay for it regardless of the cost. It is necessary
But what if we let the children pay for it when they grow up? Yes, the cost will be several orders of magnitude more, but we don’t have to think about that now.
Just jubilee the debt away? Bro money is fake, who cares?
I live on the North end of the SF Bay Area and literally every empty lot and a shit load of pasture land and open space is currently being developed into either low income apartments, high end apartments, town houses or track homes. It’s honestly kind of shocking. Everywhere you go, new residential development.
Sonoma County supervisors were supposed to vote on a housing development plan in January, but failed to do so until August, and in the meantime there was a special rule that allowed builders to go ahead without most of the red tape they usually face. They took the opportunity and ran with it.
This is such bullshit. It doesn’t cost millions of dollars to add new plumbing, HVAC, and interior walls.
Actually it’s not bullshit. Most office buildings are designed with large core space where the elevators and stairs etc go. That’s not at all how apartment buildings are designed. Changing that is extremely expensive.
Say you have an average size house, with a 2-car garage on the side. You decide to change that garage into a small apartment for renting. You need to add a wall or two, add insulation, build up a kitchen area (with proper water and power) and a bathroom.
Imagine how much that would cost you for that single apartment. Now multiply that by, say, 50, to convert a large office building into 50 residential rental units. Even with economies of scale, that’s still going to cost millions…
Dude… you’re arguing that it’s better to tear down, and build from scratch then it is to retro fit. This is obvious bullshit. In your example it would be more practical to retro fit the garage then to tear it down, and build a new building. Like fuck man.
“ In parts of the country where land is relatively cheap, it’s far less expensive to build housing from scratch than to convert old offices.”
The 8000th “Covid killed cities” article, just shifting the goalposts and jumping around to different cities with different metrics out of context to make it seem worse than it is.
Capitalism killed cities, not COVID.
cars kill cities
They do too, but the cost of living (a problem exacerbated by capitalism treating property as an investment) has pushed workers out of cities, which kills the ability of businesses to keep employees, and thus the downtown empties of businesses like restaurants.
Urbanization has been increasing globally for hundreds of years. Nothing killed cities.
Are you saying that you don’t think cities are having issues?
I’m saying cities aren’t dying. Cities reinvent themselves when they have issues. Oh no, the textile industry is leaving NYC after WWII and the area those factories were in is considered a slum, the city is dying… and now that area is SoHo.
If this article was just trying to say “cities are still working their way back to pre-covid commercial activity levels” then sure, there is a temporary issue from a generational pandemic, agreed. But if you think people are going to stop moving to cities long term you are just wrong.
I mean the author is basically saying what you’re saying. the title definitely left off a keyword from the title : "[Traditional] Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support… " with their definition of traditional downtowns being only business focused downtowns, rather than muxed usage downtowns
Walmart, suburbs, and the Internet killed downtowns IMO.
Makes sense. Downtowns are commercial districts with few, if any, residential buildings. Restaurants exist there to feed the various workers. Workers will shop after work or bring family/friends/dates to the area because it’s something they know or are familiar with.
With WFH, no one has a reason to go to downtown. Cost of living increases already make them think twice about doing so.
All in all, we’re seeing a shift from specifically zoned districts to mixed use downtowns. This means smaller stores, more walkable or mass transit focus. These cities will just need to incentivize conversion of these downtowns to include more residential structures.
we need statewide laws, preempting any local zoning laws, that allow dense residential buildings with no parking minimums in any zone that allows office uses.
Disabled parking should always be required. Not everybody can take public transit, or not without it being unreasonably burdensome and/or dangerous (think immunocompromised people for transit being dangerous).
paratransit vans have been a thing for a long time and solve this issue. the amount of traffic they cause is negligible. just follow ADA rules for disabled parking with the spaces you do end up building and don’t worry about it. disabled people are much less likely to own a car in the first place than the average person, so privileging cars does them no good
Zoning is only useful for the type of place that isn’t built to keep harmful emissions confined to their land. Farms (manure smell), and some chemical industry apply and should not have housing at all. Farmers will be shocked to learn I just told them they need to move to town.
Here here
Wait, is this another trick to make me go back to the office?
I wouldn’t say thats what it is, but it is used for that
One of the most-striking experiences of my regional metro core’s death throes was needing to pee but my train was delayed. Tried walking across the way to the local train station to use their facilities but the security guy they’d hired to keep the homeless out about fought me to keep me from using the restroom.
If you wonder why your city streets and transit zones smell like piss, it’s because when you lock up your bathrooms to keep the homeless people away, they’ll piss on your street
You think it would be obvious but for some reason. I’m not sure if I have IBS or something, but I am always on the look out for bathrooms and they are so hard to find downtown.
In the town that we spent our summers in, there was a single, well hidden, public restroom on Main Street. This is a town that makes their living on tourism. You would think they wouldn’t want people have quit shopping and leave downtown to pee.
After moving from the US to Europe there is something magical about walking around the city and town centers here. Not just the tourist traps like Rome and Paris but smaller towns and villages with tiny narrow streets lined with shops and restaurants and people walking around. So much better than the souless shells our downtowns have become in the US.
Of course they are nice to walk through, people wouldn’t have lived there for thousands of years if they weren’t.
How the fuck does this article define “downtown”? Can’t find an explanation in it.
I use to go downtown somewhat often, but I don’t have the money to do it these days.
That’s one of the biggest factors for me, too. Of course the elite want to blame it all on WFH, but there are plenty of people who would still go to downtown areas to eat and shop and go to bars, but who the hell can afford that these days? If wages were even close to keeping up with the cost of living, I’d guess there would be more downtown activity.
Soo it’s wealthy idiots’ fault, right? Cool. Fuck em.
Don’t forget about all the poor idiots supporting them!
“They’re a business and they need to make money!” Funny how we don’t hear this as often anymore. The people who said it before were so gung-ho about it being an absolute truth with no nuance or exceptions.
Those are usually the same people who believe that they will be rich one day if they work hard enough.
vibrant policy making there. you should run for public office.
Poorly planned cities no surprises there.
Modern downtown includes residential developments - live and work without the need for a car.
I can’t afford food for myself, and every day gets worse and worse, I’m sure I’m not alone, this is what happens when you let the working class go so far down the hole all they can afford to do is work and sleep.
Always hate going downtown. Way too dangerous and theres too much stuff packed in too small an area.
No one wants to be downtown in any city. That’s where all of the trouble is, drug addicts, homeless, crime…
I avoid downtown at all costs in all of the cities near me.
There’s plenty of drugs and crime in the boonies, too
Yeah but there’s white picket fences and at least two Lowe’s, so you can say “hey let’s go to the good Lowe’s today.”
This town has three Krogers. The downtown Kroger was the shitty Kroger. Then they renovated it and we all realized it was all three Krogers that were shitty and now that one isn’t.
I’m still disappointed that they closed the Market Basket on Boston Road in Billerica. Now I have to go down to the Market Basket on Boston Road, or even all the way to the Market Basket on Boston Road!
Usually the drug use is kept on people’s properties.
And the people, you know, actually own their property.
As far as crime? Well, my car was never broken into until I moved in with my friends in the center of Houston.
We’ve all had our cars broken into without the guy ever getting caught. Also had a stabbing murder right down the street, so that was nice.
Ever since leaving the major city, I haven’t really experienced any crime personally. Not that it doesn’t happen, it’s just way more prevalent in major cities.
I mean, by density it seems like there just would be less unless you are claiming a much higher drugs and crime per capita in the boonies. And you can drive by at 55mph and avoid it much more IME.
Ya, because I totally get stabbed by used needles and homeless people in the boonies…
I’d argue the types of crime happening in the boonies is vastly different than downtown, but the drug selling is probably higher. Going by the police blotters for the towns in my area:
Number one crime in the biggest city: Car theft.
Number one crime in the country: Farmers shooting their pets.
But there’s definitely hella drug dealing going on in the cuts. Ain’t no cops, less likely to be seen.
Doing drugs in the boonies is a lot less likely to attract police attention and the related Police violence due to the ‘war on drugs’. So drug use is still very high, just easily overlooked and doesn’t impact others in the same way as dense cities.
US perspective of course.
Yeah but whenever they try to accost me on the side of the road I can just roll coal in their face and drive away
I love living downtown.
Good for you
I don’t know where it love but downtown is probably some of the most sought after property and desirable locations in Toronto. So you statement is most definitely not applicable to “any city”.
U scared bro?
