Highlights: A study this summer found that using a single gas stove burner on high can raise levels of cancer-causing benzene above what’s been observed from secondhand smoke.
A new investigation by NPR and the Climate Investigations Center found that the gas industry tried to downplay the health risks of gas stoves for decades, turning to many of the same public-relations tactics the tobacco industry used to cover up the risks of smoking. Gas utilities even hired some of the same PR firms and scientists that Big Tobacco did.
Earlier this year, an investigation from DeSmog showed that the industry understood the hazards of gas appliances as far back as the 1970s and concealed what they knew from the public.
It’s a strategy that goes back as far back as 1972, according to the most recent investigation. That year, the gas industry got advice from Richard Darrow, who helped manufacture controversy around the health effects of smoking as the lead for tobacco accounts at the public relations firm Hill + Knowlton. At an American Gas Association conference, Darrow told utilities they needed to respond to claims that gas appliances were polluting homes and shape the narrative around the issue before critics got the chance. Scientists were starting to discover that exposure to nitrogen dioxide—a pollutant emitted by gas stoves—was linked to respiratory illnesses. So Darrow advised utilities to “mount the massive, consistent, long-range public relations programs necessary to cope with the problems.”
These studies didn’t just confuse the public, but also the federal government. When the Environmental Protection Agency assessed the health effects of nitrogen dioxide pollution in 1982, its review included five studies finding no evidence of problems—four of which were funded by the gas industry, the Climate Investigations Center recently uncovered.
Karen Harbert, the American Gas Association’s CEO, acknowledged that the gas industry has “collaborated” with researchers to “inform and educate regulators about the safety of gas cooking appliances.” Harbert claimed that the available science “does not provide sufficient or consistent evidence demonstrating chronic health hazards from natural gas ranges”—a line that should sound familiar by now.
Capitalism is such shit…
It really is…it’s outlived it’s usefulness and needs to go the way of the horse drawn carriage.
What is the better solution? What country has implemented something better than capitalism?
A system that fully accepts environmental realities and works against the wholesale ecocide of the planet as it’s first tenet. The rest is kinda whatever at this point. It could be a resource based economy or some sort of mixed planned/free market. Just gotta make sure that invisible hand doesn’t strangle us all in our sleep, ya know?
A climate-focused approach can be built into any economic system. This isn’t really an argument for ditching the economic system that has led to the least human suffering.
Saving the planet and endless expansion are simply not compatible. The way we are living is going to kill us all, and it’s just a fact. There are finite resources and the pollution and by products are not going away.
I mean you ever think about how much waste there is from regular everyday things like junk mail? From having to spend fuel on a tractor to plant trees to harvest paper and then process it into paper to then print the bullshit ads on the junk mail and then it has to be delivered and that causes more pollution and then you just put it straight in the garbage.
Or how about the plastic bag they give you with every purchase at literally any store? Those things don’t go away. And we are endlessly producing them, because that’s how capitalism works. You have to increase profits. That’s the whole point.
You can’t reconcile capitalism and the environment.
We are still back at what’s the alternative? Planned Economies are notorious for not being able to predict the right things to produce, and that tended to massively misallocate resources too, arguably worse, but at best in a different way.
Corruption also just seems to be a human thing and in planned economies people still snuggle up to politicians in corrupt ways, just with a different veneer.
We also have tried regulation on capitalism - capture happens. We tried liberalization of communism and we got modern China.
I think tribe based society might be the only ones I’ve heard of that focus on sustainably living, but that loses out to larger societies force / power, and I haven’t seen a way to scale that up.
A climate-focused approach can be built into any economic system
That’s worked super well so far
I feel like least human suffering is a rather insane statement with for-profit healthcare a thing. Or, you know, slavery.
How many people die every year to housing insecurity? To inadequate access to healthcare? How many people suffer because they can’t afford not to?
Absolutely ludicrous.
Or all the suffering that has been and will be caused by climate change on behalf of the shareholders
Regulated capitalism. Prosecuting corruption.
Regulated capitalism. Prosecuting corruption.
Right, regulate capitalism… by regulating the capitalists that have all the money and can buy the regulators any time they feel like it.
Sounds legit.
It was four words dude. I know it hurts, but try reading all of them.
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Well considering all it would take is knocking out the few corrupt people at the top that monopolized the industry that means it’s too fragile a system and bad design. So really it should be replaced. They are after all responsible for setting the pace of stolen wages, slave workers, lack of ethics and the reason why unions are a thing.
England trying to take over the world should have been the example on what to avoid.
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Well if no one else has done something, it clearly can’t be done, right?
The main alternative is, instead of focusing on wealth accumulation, focus on societal betterment.
I might just not be able to see outside my capitalist culture, but I think that’s a long road to get the mass of society on board. There’s just so many tasks that need to be done that I really doubt societal betterment would get people to do it.
There’s a reason Peter Singer’s stuff has only limited appeal.
You can do both, it’s not an either/or.
It depends on what limits you put on wealth accumulation. The problem is if there’s no upper limit, everything else falls by the wayside. Because accumulating wealth gets a lot more difficult if your workforce can think for themselves.
Absolutely, that’s part of it. In the US, the wealthy used be taxed a lot more, we need to go back to that time.
BombOmOm wanted to do nothing.
I don’t know what that means.
“ BombOmOm” = username
“”wanted to do nothing” should be self explanatory.
Marx figured it out 160 years ago. Spend some time and learn about it. Did the Wright brothers have to fly in a plane before they built one?
Marxist ideas just don’t seem to work in practice. You have to have a revolution that is authoritarian to force the change, and then the people in power never give it up willingly. Almost no one ever does.
But even if you did an ideal Marxist transformation, you have the huge economic problem of figuring out what to produce and where to distribute it. This is an impossible task for a committee to manage at a national scale. Capitalism outsources figuring that out to every transaction. Even when a company gets it wrong, it’s limited to that company or sector. But in planned economies when they get it wrong, it’s the entire economy. It’s all great depressions and no minor corrections.
Whats worse is you lose a lot of choices - at best a good hearted technocrat is telling you what to make and what you will get. At worse you get famines because of mistakes in prediction.
What country isn’t at least mostly capitalist?
Feudalism is such shit.
What is the better solution? What country has implemented something better than Feudalism?
You, with a time machine, probably.
Reactionaries mad
paradism dot org
Capitalism is industrialised greed, it keeps the wheels turning, having people forever chase shit that they don’t need for the sake of feeling better than the man stood next to them. What an inspirational ladder to climb.
You’re under the misunderstanding that it works.
You’re under the misunderstanding that it works.
Again, what works better? What country has implemented a better economic system?
It’s more the sociopaths running the companies that are shit. They don’t give a damn about the people they exploit and the harm they cause. And every institution’s got their share of them, not just businesses.
And they’re in the positions they are because of capitalism. Capitalism dictates you should exploit as much as possible to increase profits.
they’re in the positions they are because of capitalism.
More specifically, they are in them because of human nature. Those who don’t care about others gravitate towards positions of power. That is not exclusive to capitalism. Any hierarchy is prone to sociopaths rising to positions of power. They seek them no matter what the economic system is.
In other words, power corrupts. People without power who get power inevitably start to act like sociopaths.
But feel free to blame capitalism if you like. It is the cause of many problems with our society. Any change that decreases its power should be welcomed at least in the context of American society.
It isn’t exclusive to capitalism or caused by it, but it is exacerbated by it. It is a system that rewards the worst parts of humanity. I never claimed it to be the cause, only part of the issue.
If it’s inherent to hierarchy, how about we work to remove as much hierarchy as possible. That’s my preference.
Because any other form of government did (and does) not have the same problem to an even greater extent?
Lol that you’re being downvoted.
Everyone knows there were never any cover ups under Communism! RBMK reactor? Completely safe, comrade!
/s
Mostly because communism is not a form of government, but an economic system. A communist economy can be run by a democratic government or an authoritarian one. Same as capitalism.
Some communist economy governments were terrible, others weren’t so terrible, but all of them were sabotaged every step along the way of changing their economic systems by Capitalist interests.
Whataboutism
Technology connections informed me of this long ago! And it makes perfect sense. But almost every house I go in has a gas stove because apparently people think it’s better or nicer or “more professional” or whatever.
I find this crazy. I live in SE USA and I’ve never even seen a gas stove outside of camping. When everyone was “freaking out” online about the gas stove ban, I was just confused.
Haha! I go in about three houses per day for work and the majority will have gas. Also SE US. Although I’ve never had one in the places I’ve lived so if not for work I’d never have seen them either.
There’s a certain wealth line where they all have gas stoves. Look up the Wolf 6-burner gas range. Not something you find in a 3-2 home.
See those and thermador all the time haha such a waste
I grew up in a rural area, hence the no gas. I now live in a metro area and maybe it’s just my friends, but I’ve really never seen one. They always sounded dangerous to me.
Outside of this (and the utility fucking up, sending too much pressure, and blowing up a bunch of houses) they’re perfectly safe. Millions of homes around the world have gas service and incidents are very rare.
But given the health implications of just normal operation, I’m still not going to get a gas stove in the future.
Acklutally, up until recently gas has been far cheaper than induction. It was leagues better than electric. Even today unless you are spending a lot more on a new stove and probably upping running costs; it’s expensive to move to conduction when gas stoves last for basically forever. It’s also quite regional to natural gas areas where it’s been cheaper than electricity.
If you want to sear meat at high temps, a powerful gas stove is still today going to outperform a induction.
I’ll gladly spend a little more time in front of a stove that isn’t actively killing me.
And that’s your choice. Just don’t pretend like there isn’t a valid reason so you can make fun of hillbillies.
What are you going on about? Who am I making fun of? There’s sound evidence that gas stoves emit harmful pollutants.
deleted by creator
I don’t think I said that at all.
Gas stoves usually show up in colder places where homes would be heated with gas, and in older cities. 240V electricity was dangerous early on, and homes were usually already hooked up to gas networks for heating.
I’ve lived in places with gas stoves and with electric stoves. I vastly prefer gas stoves. Just open a window or use the exhaust fan. I don’t see a problem. Gas is currently way cheaper than electricity where I live.
Did you not read the article…?
Ok I had a similar question, but DID read the article.
I was also wondering if using an external-exhaust hood vent helped, because it sounds like it would. You’d think it would pull the NO2 outside and reduce exposure.
I did read the article. What point are you trying to make? I concede that gas stoves do generate potentially harmful combustion byproducts but in my opinion, adequate ventilation minimizes the health risks.
Did you? They don’t mention whether or not ventilation mitigates the effects.
This NPR article mentions ventilation:
“Benzene forms in flames and other high-temperature environments, such as the flares found in oil fields and refineries. We now know that benzene also forms in the flames of gas stoves in our homes,” said Rob Jackson in a statement. He’s the study’s senior author and a Stanford professor of earth sciences.
With one burner on high or the oven at 350 degrees, the researchers found benzene levels in a house can be worse than average levels for second-hand tobacco smoke. And they found the toxin doesn’t just stay in the kitchen, it can migrate to other places, such as bedrooms.
“Good ventilation helps reduce pollutant concentrations, but we found that exhaust fans were often ineffective at eliminating benzene exposure,” Jackson said.
That’s interesting but it seems like an incomplete answer. I’ve read that it’s very common for people to install a range hood that’s too small. If it’s true that range hoods are often under-sized, then it naturally follows that they would often be ineffective. So I would like to know the answer in terms of a high-end well-designed & /big/ range hood. I would also expect a low hood to be more effective than one installed high above the stove.
I’d definitely be interested in seeing more concrete numbers as well, but I was surprised (perhaps in my ignorance) that harmful chemicals were being produced in any substantial quantity at all. I mean, burning most things has that kind of reaction, but it’s somewhat more obvious when sitting around all evening next to the smoke from a campfire for instance. I just never really thought much about the chemical reaction of ignited propane.
I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people thought about their stove fans as something to primarily take care of any smoke and some of the smell from cooking, rather than a necessity to clear out toxic fumes like you’d need in a chem lab.
Well it is “better”, but it isn’t (as this article highlights) better.
Even against an induction stovetop though, it’s only better in some niche situations, otherwise I’d say the induction stovetop is better, especially because it can’t set stuff on fire.
For me it was Climate Town.
Induction stoves are still pretty expensive, and resistance electric stoves suck ass.
Do they? I’d check out Technology Connections videos on the subject. A couple more seconds to boil water is worth not inhaling whatever junk byproducts of combustion.
Induction is cheap as shit nowadays, and faster, so no-one should install new gas stoves. When renovating I ripped out my gas line.
HOWEVER I completely disagree with Alec on resistive electric stoves being “fine”. They’re terrible. They have ENORMOUS thermal inertia. He says “just move the pan off the heater”, but that doesn’t take into account that just getting a pan to the correct temperature is much harder on resistive electric. It takes forever to heat up an empty pan, but if you wait until the food is cooking to turn down the heat, it’s already too late and your food will be overcooked. Frying an egg is the worst, by the time that the pan is hot you gotta kill the heat entirely or the egg will be burnt so there is no margin for adjustment. Ugh. With induction it’s so much easier, you can just adjust the heat based on how the egg is frying and the pan will actually cool down or heat up enough that the egg will come out alright.
I mean sure depending on ventilation and personal opinions on air quality then resistive may be favorable over gas, but if I’m honest, if induction didn’t exist I’d probably take my chances with cancer.
I don’t see how resistive is any different from gas in that respect.
I’m not particularly on any side of this discussion, but gas is a lot more responsive in terms of temperature changes than a resistive hob.
You can go from full to lowest and that change will apply to the pan pretty much immediately. As the other person said, there’s thermal inertia with the element of a resistive hob, it’s going to take a bit of time to cool to a lower temperature
You don’t see how turning down a gas burner will lower the temperature in a pan faster than waiting for a red hot spiral of metal to cool off?
Boiling water isn’t what id try to sell a gas stove on. If you’re a hobbyist cook you develop hobbyist, non essential task opinions.
I bet 95% of people could happily use electric and never even wonder about alternatives.
The last 5 want the features and cook pans used with gas, to get the hobbyist results they are after.
To that I say go for it, but be aware of the risks.
Limited sample size, but Technology Connections did a great video where gas wasn’t even particularly better at boiling water. It looks like it should be because FIRE, but you get into a mess of needing to very carefully match pots to burners.
Also, look in to an electric kettle for water. Even a shitty american voltage kettle is awesome relative to putting a kettle on the stove.
For discussion, I always use an electric kettle to start water for pasta and similar.
I also love TC and have seen this video.
The hobbyist cook angle is qualitative though, if a home cook wants to emulate restaurant style there’s just no comparison.
Induction stoves get cheaper and cheaper every year.
Also? It is mostly just the old exposed metal coil resistive stoves that were horrible. You know, the one we all had growing up where you had to poke the coil with a fork until it made connection again so that it would heat up.
Pretty much any glass top resistive electric stove (so anything made in the past two decades or so?) is fine. Very easy to clean, much less prone to damage, and gets pretty hot pretty fast. You aren’t getting “wok hei” for all the cantonese stir frying you do but… you aren’t getting that with a gas stove either unless you have an ACTUAL restaurant setup (no, not just the expensive options at the Lowes) which tend to have very specific ventilation requirements too… If you want to go all out with your wok, get an outdoor propane burner.
Now, I do actually think the drawback to resistive heating staying hot is a lot bigger than “just pick up the pot”. Not when I am making a weeknight meal for myself. But when I am cooking a larger meal for a date night or having friends over and am using multiple burners? I don’t really have anywhere to put the pot. But that is also incredibly “first world problems” of “I have too much food”
I actually prefer the coils. The glass-top ones are never as easy to clean as they claim, and the glass between the burner and the pot reduces heat transfer and causes them to heat up even slower. With the coil-type the pot is resting on the heater, which means maximum heat transfer via conduction.
Another problem is that the cooktop stays very hot after you take it off the heat. With gas and induction the heat stops instantly, but I’ve burned a lot of food because I misjudged how long it takes for a resistive burner to cool down. And the glass tops are again worse because they have a lot more thermal mass than a coil.
Induction solves all of these problems, though. Heat is controllable and instant, and the cooktop cools down very quickly.
The glass in-between makes them heat up much faster, it is the whole point actually. It is IR transparent, so only the heating element itself has to heat up to get things started. Then only a bit of insulation (next to no mass) has to heat up to get things to nearly 100 %.
I have also never heard or seen this glass being harder to clean than any other type of stove, which are a pain to clean in comparison.
The glass is definitely more of a pain to clean. It’s easy enough to get stuff off, but visually you can see any streaks or missed corners much more than an enamel stovetop.
resistance electric stoves suck ass.
Sucks less ass than cancer.
I’ll die of old age waiting for a resistive electric burner to boil water.
It is getting better, we got ours for a little more than $1,000, but electric stoves are dirt cheap. 1/3rd to 1/2 the price.
suck ass
I always blame my tools when I have no experience using them.
They’re different. You’ll be fine.
I do have experience with gas, induction, and traditional electric and can say with confidence that cooking on traditional electric sucks ass. Induction is good though and I’d say it’s on par with gas if you have the right pans.
I’d miss my heirloom cast irons hah
Cast iron works fine on induction though
You scratching that across that glass?
Also you can’t lift it.
Fully agree induction is great for 95% of needs.
My ideal kitchen would have both (and does lol), with a big vent and a big window.
Resistance electric stoves can only get to about 1600 degrees. Gas stoves get to well over 3400. You can’t get a good a sear out of resistance electric, and water takes forever to boil.
My next stove is going to be induction, though I will have a propane burner for when I really need to char something.
And I’m sure you’ll be horrified to know that I have a charcoal grill like some kind of caveman.
You use the charcoal grill outside where the fumes easily disperse. A gas stove releases the pollution directly into your living space, where it hangs around. They’re not comparable.
It’s been time to switch to induction stoves for a long time now, they are basically better in every way that matters.
How are they with temperature regulation? I think that’s a big holdback for a lot of people. A gas burner gives consistent heat output at the set level, while an electric burner cycles on and off, resulting in a wider temperature range.
ETA: Wow, WTF? Downvoted for asking a legit question. Are we Reddit now?
They’re probably more consistent than gas. Provided your cookware isn’t moved on the surface, they provide a constant energy output that is a simple linear equation of energy in - losses = energy out. Period. Induction elements “cycle” on and off – hundreds or thousands of times per second. They don’t work like a radiant electric stovetop at all. There is no human perceptible duty cycle.
Fancier models like Bosch and some of the new GE Profile/Cafe ones can even wirelessly communicate with special cookware that has a temperature sensor built in, and deliver you absolute parametrically controlled temperature output at a specific temperature down to the degree, with computer controlled precision. It doesn’t get any better than that.
Provided your cookware isn’t moved on the surface
One thing I don’t like about induction is that I don’t feel like a cool chef tossing the pan. I have to just let it sit there, and if I pick the pan up it beeps at me and turns off. Plus there’s no fire.
It’s safer but definitely way less fun.
Mine will wait around five seconds before beeping at me. That usually gives me enough time for whatever flamboyance I’m attempting.
But you’re right that moving the pan away from the surface basically disconnects it from the heat source. Mine will noticeably warm a pan from about half an inch away, but no further.
I wish I could test drive a stove before I buy it. I’ve just been using a cheap induction cooktop and it’s so bad I’m sure a full-size stove would be better, but I don’t want to drop a couple grand plus rewiring my house to find out the stove I bought sucks as bad as this cooktop.
But damn can it boil water fast.
If you’re paying a couple of grand for one you’re probably looking at a premium unit. Or your local dealer is overcharging. The Frigidaire FCFI3083AS lists for $1199, a lot of retailers have it for less. Samsung’s model is a bit cheaper still, but don’t buy a Samsung appliance.
What don’t you like about the cooktop? And what brand is it?
They sell single burners. That use a 110. You can use it for water boiling and use the range for bugger meals
Induction elements “cycle” on and off – hundreds or thousands of times per second […] There is no human perceptible duty cycle
See unfortunately what you’re describing here are good induction stoves, which is not the majority of what is on the market.
I’ve seen far too many of the bad kind, with duty cycles measured in the tens of seconds. Your 7/10 on the dial could be - like a non-inverter microwave - something in the neighbourhood of 7 seconds on / 3 seconds off. At that point they can actually be worse to use than old halogen glass cooktops, which at least remain hot during the off part of their thermostat’s cycle.
This is not even just cheap no-name crap either, have witnessed it with big-name-brand in-bench stovetops with four-figure pricetags.
If you’re doing something like poaching eggs (which typically calls for a wide, flat pan), you’ll actually see the water starting and stopping boiling in a cycle as it switches. Absolutely terrible.
I have a le cheapo Frigidaire, and mine definitely doesn’t do that. I also have a Summit tabletop single burner induction hot plate kicking around, which I think cost me all of $130 and came with three pans in the box. It doesn’t do that, either.
If you’ve got a recent model that does have a long on-off duty cycle like that, you should name and shame so people know to avoid it. People buying that kind of thing and being turned off by it is just going to slow down the course of progress, here.
Induction has instant temperature control, combined with the possibility of having lower temperatures than gas allows for.
Additionally, there’s no temperature leakage into the room, nor any particles from combustion.
They are perfect at temperature regulation. I have a little 120v unit that even has a hold @ temperature function. Goes as low as 180 and I think as high as 500°
Remember induction heats the pan directly via induction and thus requires cookware that a magnet can stick to. Otherwise faster, more efficient, easy to control
They also boil water faster than consumer stoves. My pans are no longer sticky with the un-ignited gas residue. Baking is so much more even as well. I cook the same amount and my power/gas bill is lower than before. Lots of benefits.
Baking in electric is better than gas because one of the combustion products is water, which reduces the drying effect of baking.
It depends on what you’re baking. You wouldn’t want your cake to have a crispy hard crust on the outside, but you would want that with bread and pizza.
It really depends on which induction burner you have. I’ve got a 120v one with a “temperature hold” function. It varies +/- 30 degrees. Trying to hold chocolate or a cream sauce at a specific temperature always results in burning. Maybe I have a shitty one, but it just cycles on and off at full power at set intervals, and it’s nowhere near the consistency I get out of my gas stove.
I really, really hope the stoves out there don’t do this sort of thing, and actually just run the induction constantly at reduced output instead of just cycling on and off. But the cooktop is still perfect for boiling huge amounts of water, or getting cast iron rocket-hot for searing.
Just got rid of my gas stove and got induction. I will never cook with gas again. They have way faster heating and temperature control. Any one who says different hasn’t used induction.
All electric are fine. There is no discernible difference by the time it gets to the food. Like I had to be academically informed that this on/off even happened, I had no idea. This is such a ridiculous fake concern that’s been created.
It might come from those cheap portable models. I tried one my mom had and the cycles were very obvious. It was difficult to do anything where I had to hold a temp, even doing a simple simmer was hard because it would go from boiling to nothing repeatedly. Things constantly burned on it due to poor temp regulation. I know it was a shitty model and I expect full size models to be much better, but it was a concern of mine as well.
I do hope to pick up an induction within a year or two. Can’t really afford it at the moment though.
A lot of other comments in this chain are getting a single downvote so far.
It’s ok Big Gas/Oil, we know it’s you.
Consistent heat to that level doesn’t matter outside of VERY specific use cases like tempering a ridiculously small amount of chocolate with very little water in the double boiler setup. Oh, and you have like pure aluminum pans, I guess.
Because also? Gas stoves aren’t as consistent as people think. Yes, we assume they are because we can see the fire. But various impurities in the line, air in the system, etc and you still get minor sputtering and fluctuations.
All of which… almost never matters. Because even when you are doing the most delicate of baking work: You tend to have a double boiler set up so that the water can maintain the heat during these fluctuations.
How are they with temperature regulation? I think that’s a big holdback for a lot of people. A gas burner gives consistent heat output at the set level, while an electric burner cycles on and off, resulting in a wider temperature range.
That is not how induction works. The big holdback for people is ignorance about what induction even is. Temperature regulation is instant same way as it is with gas.
Freaking out because some idiot downvoted you. Are we Reddit now?
I hear a lot that gas is cheaper for heating and I took that as the truth for a long time. A while ago I did the math though, and for my house is would have been nearly the same annual power bill if I replaced my 90% gas furnace and water heater with electric units. Although the price of gas is far more economical for heating, there’s a monthly gas usage fee that’s a flat rate. If you go all electric, you don’t pay that, and over the course of a year, I didn’t heat enough for the lower gas price to offset the flat fees. If instead of a regular electric furnace and water heater, they were heat pumps, electric would have been much cheaper than gas.
This certainly would depend on your local prices and weather and how well your house is insulated, but if you need a new furnace, I’d do the math over a year to see if gas is still the most financially attractive option, especially if you can install an air or ground source heat pump.
Electric stoves are easier and more comfortable to cook, but if this study is true im definitely going electrict next.
I believe the cost of an electric heater was a lot higher even after using available rebates. Hopefully the prices go down or rebates increase and it becomes a more viable option
It’s like everything is lies or something, that sure is surprising in a world where the only important thing is money. It’s like its an inevitable consequence or something. Like we shouldn’t have organized our society this way
fuckin shocking
I was told that the free market would naturally remove any bad actors… I guess we just have to deal with half a century of collateral damage before that happens.
That’s when they roll out the “it’s not really a free market” argument.
Aight. I must be missing something huge here.
Here’s the formula for burning methane:
CH4 + 2O2 → CO2 + 2H2O
Are there other chemicals in the gas that don’t combust? Or don’t combust completely?
EDIT: Jesus Christ I’m an idiot, and y’all upvoted this?! The end product is water and carbon dioxide. Better than straight methane in the atmosphere, at least in the long term, but damn I’m stupid sometimes.
I assume there are contaminants or products of incomplete combustion.
LOL, you’re killing me Smalls. That’s exactly what I was asking.
It seems that the main problem is the existence of benzene in the natural gas. It’s not an additive; it exists in crude oil and comes through in the final product after cracking and refining. I haven’t been able to find anything showing the exact method for which benzene acts as a carcinogen, but there are several studies that show a strong correlation between benzene exposure and leukemia.
Benzene is also in gasoline, so it’s also recommended that you don’t spend a lot of time huffing gasoline.
Benzene is also in gasoline, so it’s also recommended that you don’t spend a lot of time huffing gasoline.
You’re not the boss of me.
There is some nitrogen in the air. In any combustion in the air, there is gonna be a small part of the nitrogen in the air reacting with the fuel, instead of oxygen. Why this happens when there are oxygen present? Idk. Entropy or something.
I’m a complete novice when it comes to chemistry though. So I might be completely wrong.
Nitrogen is notoriously unreactive though? Must be contaminants.
Not sure about what happens with the chemical they add to make the gas smell.
I never got this fervent obsession “i mUsT hAvE gAs StOvE, eLeCtRiC iS tHe SuCk wAhHhHh.” Geez you think an electric stove killed their puppy or something. Electric is more than fine, it’s even better because it’s not putting out all that extra heat, nevermind all the pollution, and the noise because you’re supposed to run the fan at high (but people never do). Cue the gAs crying below.
Obligatory Climate Town Video: It’s Time To Break Up With Our Gas Stoves. It explains why we are, where we are today and what myth the gas industry is pushing to keep gas in our homes and the fugitive leaks in the environment. Can not recommend it enough.
Awesome video. Every time I see something this guy made I am impressed.
The only real issue is that how environmentally friendly electric is compared to gas depends on how the electricity is made. Gas effectively converts all of its potential chemical energy to heat where it is used. Electricity has to be generated from some process eg. burning fuel, nuclear energy, wind, solar, hydroelectric etc. and if it is primarily generated at coal or gas power plants, maybe 40 to 50% of the potential chemical energy in those fuels are converted into electricity. So if more than about 40% of the electricity you use is generated by burning fossil fuels, you arent really saving the environment by using electric instead of gas. But of course where that pollution ends up matters. In the case of electric, if your power is generated in power plants that burn fossil fuels, the pollution isn’t directly being vented into your house. And those power plants may scrub their exhaust to an extent. i.e to reduce Sulfur Dioxide emissions etc.
Scrubbers at power plants will do way more than the one you won’t have at home.
And gas can never be converted.
Electric + cast iron is my favorite combo, because the heat capacity of the cast iron pretty much cancels out the uneven heat from an electric burner
I’m currently frying with the thinnest stainless steel pan I’ve ever seen from the 70s. Didn’t even know they could be that thin. And there is no problem with the on/off cycle. It’s a made up fake concern from who knows where.
I am very happy with my induction range. I switched from gas just before this info about gas ranges became a thing.
Much less use of handle covers with my cast iron frying pans because it directly heats instead of throwing heat everywhere. Boils water faster than my microwave. And health bonuses too.
Is this natural gas, or propane, or both? The article mostly uses just “gas” but does mention natural gas once.
Those are the same things.
They’re not the same.
Natural gas is composed of a few different things like butane methane even propane and a few others.
Propane is just propane.
For environmental purposes, propane is cleaner than natural gas.
I don’t think the article distinguished the two.
Yes yes and gasoline isn’t literally petroleum, good job.
wtf are you on about
Knowing things, like propane being a product of natural gas (and petroleum) refinement, just like gasoline is a product of petroleum refinement, you ignorant yet pedantic dorks.
Natural gas and propane are not the same thing.
Natural gas is methane, not propane.
We don’t have a stove, but we do have a gas furnace and water heater. When we were buying the home 2 years ago, the inspection turned up a gas leak in the attic and that almost halted the whole thing. That and the radon gear that was installed and never enabled.
We did get it resolved, but man, it was a super scary discovery.
Gas leak in the attic? Why would you have gas service in the attic?
That’s where the furnace is. ;)
Some houses have the furnace in the attic.
I’d still rather have a gas stove. IMO the improved experience of cooking with gas justifies the small increase in exposure to air pollution. My general principle is that I drive a car despite how dangerous that is, so I should be willing to take other risks as long as they’re lower than the risk from driving.
(Resistive electric stoves are terrible. Inductive ones are much better. I can see why someone might like them more than gas, but I don’t.)
Worse than secondhand smoke is not a small increase to air pollution
There’s nothing better about gas than inductive, anyone complaining about conductive either has the wrong cookware or a malfunctioning model
I do consider it a small increase, but I suppose that’s subjective and depends a lot on a person’s risk tolerance. Maybe mine is higher than yours.
As for induction stoves: they work quite well. If I was cooking simply because I needed cooked food and for no other reason, I would have no objection to them (and perhaps a preference for them). However, I feel that there’s something deeply satisfying about cooking over a fire and I want that satisfaction when I cook.
I agree. Gas is hands down a better heat source if your primary method of cooking is to sauté and toss or are cooking in a wok. The flame is a tool you can work with. But for most home cooks, it doesn’t make much difference. If you’re just scooting stuff around with a spatula, a hot pan is a hot pan no matter how it got hot.
do I have to take on the climate change risks too even though I had no say?
I think you have to accept risks of that magnitude unless you’re willing to micromanage other people’s lives (and to have your own life micromanaged). If you’re not going to tolerate people who use gas stoves, will you tolerate people who take twenty minute showers? People who heat their houses to 75° in the winter? People who have big lawns?
There’s a point past which protecting the environment doesn’t justify intrusive restrictions of people’s behavior, and IMO banning gas stoves is well beyond that point.
So my gas stove is bad, but here’s a question: what about my gas heater that heats my home. Those things just light fire using gas and then blow air across it to warm the house. Wouldn’t this be worse than the stove?
No, because your furnace should be venting its exhaust outside. There’s a heat exchanger that draws interior air through the furnace, taking heat from the combustion but the exhaust and your home’s interior air do not mix!
Edit: I should qualify the above. A gas furnace is less bad for your health than a gas stove, because a gas stove is leaving a lot of combustion byproducts in the home’s air while a gas furnace shouldn’t. There’s still a case to be made that anything burning fossils fuels is probably not healthy and isn’t good for the environment to boot.
Gas and oil furnaces have the burning air and the indoor air strictly separated to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning. If you want a deep dive into how it works so you know you’re safe - provided you’ve had it inspected and serviced recently - here’s a Technology Connections video.
If you’re taking an actual furnace and not some crazy contraption, those are made so the exhaust goes outside, and fresh air is heated (it’s not mixed with exhaust) and then pushed into the ducts.
That’s not how those work. All of the exhaust gasses get vented outside.
The gas that heats the air and the air that’s heated do not mix, Technology Connections has a video on this topic where he shows how a gas fired furnace works
The fumes are vented to outside unless your installation is bad or broken
Laughs hysterically in South African… where we now have no choice but to use gas for almost everything because our electrical grid is collapsing due to IMF-approved neoliberal shitfuckery.
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Gas stoves rock. Rather than banning gas stoves, just require that they be installed safely.
The answer here is simple- mandate a range hood with real outside exhaust (not the cheap ones that blow air back into the room). And require a make-up air vent with equivalent capacity.
Maybe require the stove to automatically engage the vent at low speed (near-silent) so when you start a burner the vent runs at like 10CFM or something automatically.
I just had my kitchen done and asked for better ventilation, provided options. Ended up with a microwave that blows air into the fucking room. And its connected to a vent outside, its just designed to blow air into the fucking room despite that. Contractor was so clueless and products are there to deceive us.
I think he probably installed it wrong. I’ve seen a few of these and read the manuals, there is almost always a setup where you have to remove a baffle from the rear output and reinstall that baffle in the front output. Look up the installation manual for your microwave. I would bet money your contractor missed a step.
Yep. I’d rather not have a propane stove, but I live in an area with a lot of power outages. We have a propane generator for backup power. Makes no sense to size to generator to run and induction stove when we can just use our, properly installed, propane stove.
